Posts by: The Demented One

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[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
Are there such things as spontaneous workings? Like slaying the first akuma blighting the land so that all things take on some of the qualities of hell?
I'm very wary of turning "sorcerous workings" into a big catch-all box to shove everything magical and miraculous into the setting. Sometimes, slaying the first akuma just blights the land, y'know?

But to get at your question: no. Workings are a process of a time and effort, generally taking longer to complete even than spells which require a ritual to cast. If you want to lay down your death-curse via sorcery, you'd want to complete that working before you actually die.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Originally posted by Captain Aeon View Post
Thanks! That's really helpful. And sure, if you're an evil Solar and you want to wreck some offending nation's stuff for all eternity, then you go RoD. If you're an evil ex-mortal sorcerer who wants to do the same thing, you're "stuck" with using a Working to create a Kimbery Desecration that consumes the land in vitriol. It's not ideal, but one makes do, right? *eg*
A curse or cataclysm that lasts unto eternity is still generally something that even a Solar Circle sorcerer is going to want to turn to a working for. After all, the toxic runoff of the Rain of Doom "only" blights the land for a few decades after you cast it.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Originally posted by Raemus View Post
Is it bad that when I saw the title of this thread my brain briefly jumped to the conclusion that Onyx path had announced that there were now the "August 10 Magic Materials" to give each and every exalt type its own MM? (I kinda like the sound of the "August" materials)
Gonna write that one down for later use.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Being able to see through your parent's Arcane Fate strikes me as a reasonable minor thing for a Sidereal's Half-Caste to have.

Pre-Exaltation children probably do not have any special benefit, unless it's just really fucking depressing at the table, in which case sure, they can.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
What I want to know is what artefacts can't do: can you make a daiklaive with a working? A manse?
I would probably draw a hard line at using sorcerous workings to replicating the goals of things that are uniquely gained through the use of other Abilities and systems. But your Storyteller might disagree!

Are there restrictions on the powers you can give yourself (that seems like actually the most abusable thing)? Can you make offensive workings, ie curses on your enemies, and are there rules for resisting?
Yes, and they are the Storyteller. If you want to give yourself a gaze that turns your enemy's shadow into vicious spiders, you'll work out how exactly you roll that, what costs you have to pay, and how enemies defend with the Storyteller. If you lay down a curse on the Imperial City to ensure that no live child can be born within it, the Storyteller's going to either (depending on Finesse) decide how it can be resisted, or work with you to figure it out.

The primary goal of sorcerous workings as a system is to be an evocative and flavorful way of letting sorcerers work great wonders of sorcery and lasting miracles that spells aren't well-suited to handling. The secondary goal is to help guide the sorcerer's player and the Storyteller in essentially homebrewing mechanics for how the working functions.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
Though as for the lower flight ceiling, that's what my question is - can you make a Working variation of a spell that is mechanically identical to the spell, with the only difference being that the Working is immune to counter magic? Or will your Working variation inevitably have to have some differences from the spell that you're mimicking?
I strongly suspect that "workings that are mechanically identical to the spell" are not a thing that will show up in actual play. It's just not evocative or resonant, y'know? If we do carry this thought experiment out, though, the degree of difference is going to depend on a lot of things, including the Finesse of the working and whether you have any interesting failures in the process.

Also, as a follow up question, I probably should have asked earlier - how obvious is it to a Sorcerer whether an effect was brought into existence by a spell or by a Working, and therefore know whether he can use counter magic on it or not? Do spells and Workings have any obvious differences? Or does a sorcerer, who is faced with some sort of magical obstacle, just have to cast counter magic and hope for the best? I assume there would probably be an Occult roll involved, though if a Working effect were mechanically, functionally and visibly identical to a spell, I imagine it would be a rather high difficulty...
This is a meta-level transparency thing, so it can vary from table to table, but I generally assume you'll always know whether something is a spell you can distort, or something else.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/14/2015
Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
Your Working cloud might be unable to be banished, but that doesn't make it strictly better than a Cirrus Skiff - perhaps it will be vulnerable to being shot down with arrows and such, or have a lower flight ceiling.
Or maybe it has a crush on you!

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

That was just an example, since it had already been raised in the thread. But how about this.

A Sorcerer casts Cirrus Skiff and flies around the battlefield dropping bombs or shooting arrows at his enemies. At one point, he gets too close to his rival who casts Emerald Counter Magic, dispelling his sorcerous vehicle and sending him plummeting to the earth.

Now, if that first Sorcerer had performed a Working some time earlier to essentially summon up a Cirrus Skiff (which has the same mechanical effects as if he had simply summoned it via a spell). But, unlike the spell, since it was summoned as a Working, it would be invulnerable to Counter Magic. He could fly wherever he wanted and now have to worry about his Cirrus Skiff being banished out from under him. In theory, I suppose his rival could undertake an anti-Working Working to banish this Skiff, but I don't believe Workings are things you can reasonably undertake during pitched battle.

So, this is an example of a spell where it could be better to be use a Working to gain the effect than cast it as a spell, since ensuring your vehicle can't be banished might be a very useful thing (especially if you know you'll be facing an opponent who wields counter magic).

This is the sort of thing that could matter at the gaming table - "Sorry, but your counter magic was ineffective. The sorcerer conjured it by using a Working, not a spell," so I'm trying to figure out how far into "Working As Intended" the ability to copy spells lies, especially where it might be somewhat more beneficial to conjure a particular spell effect as a Working rather than cast it as a sorcery.

If that's how it's supposed to work, and there are times where you would rather perform an effect via Working than through casting it as a spell (and since Workings are immune to counter magic there definitely will be times where that might be a good idea) then that's fine - I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just trying to get a good understanding of how the system is intended to work.
Countermagic has changed fairly substantially in 3rd Edition (for starters, you don't have to spend a spell on it!). That makes addressing this squarely a little tricky, but overall it's not really something that raises concern. Workings take a bit more effort to disrupt than spells, but that's commensurate to the amount of effort that goes into accomplishing a working.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
Really I'm having not seeing an absolute point where spells, workings and artefacts each really begin and end... which if correct would probably be fine as it allows a lot of flexibility.

From what I have read of the workings I feel like if someone wanted to do a working which meant they were attended always by a dark miasma such that when the sorceror spake "Mu" the cloud disperses into a swarm of deadly butterflies which scourge the sorceror's rivals and foes then... fine? right. Like, why would you do that when you can learn the "Death of Obsidian Butterflies", or you could make your working do something more expansive, but hey no reason why not if you so choose.

On the other hand, guy who wrote the system right here, so...
You basically got it.

The line between artifacts and sorcery is a bit thicker than the line between spells and workings, but honestly not by all that much.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
Is wiping out a city overnight (disregarding however much ritual has to occur first) with some horrible doom as a Working within the capabilities of an Emerald Circle sorcerer, though?
A mortal sorcerer can attempt all but the greatest heights of sorcerous workings. Emphasis on attempt. It is not a sure or easy thing even if you have gathered every possible advantage, and the consequences of what might be a minor setback for a Solar sorcerer can be disastrous calamities. If you do pull it off, it's gonna be the stuff of legend, the kind of thing that gets you added the same roll of names that Bagrash Kol is on.

There's also the complication of people potentially noticing that you're doing all this ritual to set up an apocalyptic cataclysm, and remedying that by, say, just killing you before you can complete it.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

Okay. So generally speaking, if you can do something with Sorcery, then you probably can't simply replicate it via a Working.
Eh, doesn't really work as a bright-line rule.

A sorcerous working is an extended ritual in which you channel sorcerous power through rituals, magical foci, or will alone to reshape the world on a generally significant scale and permanent basis. If the kind of thing you want to do sounds like that, then it's probably the kind of thing that a working can do. If it's more along the lines of "with an incantation and a wave of my hand, I wreck your shit with obsidian butterflies," it probably isn't something a working can do.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Originally posted by Captain Aeon View Post
Okay, forget Rain of Doom for a minute. I wish I hadn't even implied an effect that was similar to an existing spell, but big "mess you up" magic is one of those things that's been covered pretty well by previous editions.

Can a Working perform, to borrow a Mage-ism, Inter-Continental Ballistic Magick? Can a sorcerer with enough time perform a Working that causes a city to be swallowed by the earth, or plagued by killer mutant chickens, or sent into Malfeas? Is that a thing that a Working can do? Because the exact effect is irrelevant to what I'm looking for, here -- the plot seed is the thing. "Please, great heroes, go stop the Evil Reality Mutilator from causing our city to be crushed by the earth/slaughtered by cucoos/consumed by Malfeas!" That. Is that a thing that can happen?
It's notionally possible, even if it does fall squarely within the wheelhouse of what workings are meant to do. "An evil sorcerer is casting some apocalypse ritual, go stop him" is pretty archetypal, and it's a thing workings can do. If you can cast Rain of Doom, you probably want to do that instead, for a number of reasons, but large-scale destruction isn't off the table for workings.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

Could you though, in theory, create Workings that function identically to various Sorcery spells? Like summoning up a rain of doom to destroy a city and have it use the same mechanics as the spell, Rain of Doom? Or any other spell...
No. You can't just do a working that's Death of Obsidian Butterflies. Death of Obsidian Butterflies isn't a working.

On the other hand, if you want to perform a working to breed a race of obsidian butterflies to scour the lands of your enemies, then knowing Death of Obsidian Butterflies will help out.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/13/2015
Sorcerous workings don't really emulate or have a basis in spells at all.

There are some things from past editions, like Pressed Beyond the Veil of Time, that can be done through sorcerous workings, because they're the kind of thing that sorcerous workings make sense for. Doesn't stop us from writing an Ex3 Pressed Beyond the Veil of Time, because we can, but when you do that working you're going to be bringing forth a mighty miracle to fulfill your intentions, not just basing a working off an existing/hypothetical spell.

[#][F] The Demented One - 8/8/2015
Originally posted by Solar View Post
Because right now you can't play the most powerful Merchant Prince in any direction as an Exalted, really. The Guild does that, and the Guild won't let Celestials in, certainly not at that level, and they'll plot device kill you due to their incredible group loyalty if you fuck with them. No no. I do not like this. Creation doesn't need a vast inter-Directional trading conglomerate with a stranglehold over trade across the entire Threshold. They have the Realm if you want an organisation like that, and then they should just have dozens of local trade conglomerates all over the place as the alternative.
The (or rather, one) purpose of the Guild is to provide an antagonist to the player who wants to be the most powerful merchant in the world. It is very difficult to make that a meaningful achievement that the player feels good about if her only economic competitors are a bunch of bozos and jabronis who don't stand a chance against the Eclipse Caste when it comes to a trade war.

There's a reason that Masters of Jade describes the future downfall(s) of the Guild.