Originally posted by Captain Aeon
Nope. M20 was indexed and CCP approved before we got our copies. However, CPP approval took, like, a day or two, so there's that.
There's no index in M20 yet. Our intention is to do the same thing with getting the EX3 PDF to backers- everything except the index if at all possible.
Originally posted by Rahod
Just a thought here maybe they are stalling the release of the core book to give more time to the sup books to be release with or shortly after the core's release. Please don't take this as I am complaining or trolling its just a thought I would be ok with it if it was true...
We wouldn't do that, we're not doing that, and there is no single project I more want to have in folks' hands than Exalted 3rd. No supplement is more important than this book and giving folks a chance to finally have it.
Just wanted to pop on and thank everybody here for keeping discussions civil. Much appreciated. To clarify a couple of things in the thread: what Maria did last time with the layout was to make a very basic format and then insert the text into that to give a basic idea of chapters and word count. She modified that basic format a bit based on that document and we sent the text back to the Devs so that they could tighten up parts and my understanding from Holden is that they took the opportunity to really review how they wrote certain sections and tighten those up. And no, I do not know what was cut and if any of those chunks were significant enough to use elsewhere later.
Once the Devs sent the text back, we needed to go back and forth with a new rough layout in order to be sure that the text she was using was absolutely the last version. She does not want to be midway through 600+ (and +) pages and find out she needs to rip out part and redo it. Now that that is confirmed, she is doing the actual first real layout phase as everything she decides to do will be using the actual text that should show up in the PDF and books. This is the hardest phase as the real design decisions are made here. And just a bit further: Maria is designing this new EX3 layout format differently than any before it, but it is still using the two column format on an 81/2 x 11 page as a base, so while she has the freedom to bring her own design sensibilities in, she's not going to be presenting a layout that is alien to Exalted or RPGs. It should have a fresh look, and in parts present some surprises, but not cure the common cold.
Originally posted by Deamion
I get the point of your post, Rich. Really, I do. But that statement above, dissapoints me. Not asking for an apology or groveling or anything like that. Just wanting to get it out there how statements like that can come across. That's all.
How do they come across? Like I'm a human being who can't be pissed on every time I try and keep backers and fans in the loop on what we are doing, and continue to function?
What that sort of posting does is continue the idea that regardless of how negative the posts are, it's OK and I and my team should take it because people are disappointed and frustrated. Even though in my post I explained how that's exactly what we have been doing for well over a year and that we no longer can and continue to communicate. That post basically said "eat it" and invalidated my feelings, which I have never done to you.
My point is that such posting is not acceptable, nor is posting in support of the very behavior I'm talking about, because that continues the argumentative downward spiral of the Exalted forums.
This has to do with our forums and the nastiness here. Stay on target.
Hey folks, here's the thing. We want you to feel free to come to these forums and talk about Exalted stuff, critique, laud, and complain. And for a very long time I have been of the mind that because of the delays on EX3, posters here should be given more leeway to vent their frustration over the situation. Unfortunately, that has now led to a new situation where once a week someone posts something from my weekly blog post and multiple arguments break out, insults are hurled, and somebody demands an apology from me. And then we close the thread.
Can you complain? Yes you can. But as you all know, if you really want to talk about improving a problem you see, the almost immediate acceleration from stating a concern to accusations and insults shuts down any chance that the very people who can gain from you voicing your concerns will actually listen. Rants and vitriol as standard operating procedure are not acceptable. Pouncing each and every week on each piece of info with an eye towards how it proves how we're fucking you over is not conducive to communication.
For my part, the amount of abuse I or my team have taken with each and every update here or to KS backers has reached the point where I really don't want to share any progress with all of you. That is how I feel. But I know that there are plenty of fans and backers out there who have not participated in the comments that have caused this accumulated feeling, and you can see a lot of folks here trying to do their best to be patient and to appreciate the complexity of trying to get EX3 to all of you. That can't be easy, and I truly appreciate each and every one of you who has made that effort- your posts here have kept me posting and from just sharing nothing until we have a PDF ready.
So we can't keep going like this, and if I am going to continue to share the progress, or lack thereof depending on the week and topic, of the EX3 book and line, then change must happen in different ways in order that these forums be a place where folks can once again feel like they can read and participate in interesting discussions about the game we all love. I'm not going to set up any more rules here than we already have on these forums, but expect the rules to be enforced with less concern for your situation and more for the overall good of the forum. In addition, if you are clearly waiting each week to pick apart the update- and yes, the mods and I and half the posters here can tell that that is what is happening- then expect to be given time away from these forums.
As always, I know and deeply regret how frustrated you are. That is not the issue. You don't need me to tell you that you have a right to feel how you are feeling, but so you know, I do respect that and am not telling you all to "get over it". What I am saying is that there are constructive and destructive ways to express yourself, and here on these forums, we need you to be aware of which kind of posting you are doing.
How about this? We have worked with them as they requested, I have no idea how their work is going because making Anathema is not my company's project, and I expect to hear from them when they have news or need something else. Since they are the only character generator we are doing this with, this is currently pretty friggin' official.
Originally posted by Jutlander
As many others I am impressed that you do so.I get that.
AtG expressed surprise that the backers expected more than a name-drop. I expressed that this was not my perception of the situation, and that the backers simply expected an accurate name-drop.
It is obvious now that the backers were never promised anything more than the appearance of a string of letters identical to the string of letters they use to identify their characters. And in that sense you have done nothing wrong. I truly believe and accept that this whole thing is a misunderstanding. The backers thought they were paying for one thing when really they were paying for another thing.
But does it surprise you that the backers are surprised that they were not even guaranteed that you would use the correct gender?
This reward has been popular with every single one of our Kickstarters and while I tweaked the language to get us to this point along the way, there have only been a couple of complaints from those dozen KSs along the lines of what we've heard here. So you tell me- in the face of evidence that most times this reward has been offered that most backers "got it", is it something about this EX3 Kickstarter or the Exalted fans that tends towards more backers wanting/expecting more? Maybe a lot of our backers here never backed one of our KSs before? Certainly, it being a surprise to so many of you that we'd fix obvious errors like SSSerafina because it's a PDF is a shocking surprise to me. That's been our working method for years now.
Or is it unusual in the pattern of discussion which involved posting here in the forums instead of backers sending concerns to me via the Kickstarter site? I mean, that's what the "Contact Me" button is for, and I have access to all your pledge info that way. Again, maybe backers here didn't know that.
Or is it this forum and the expected posting patterns that turn something that can be discussed, and potentially resolved, simply, into a mess of accusations and insults? This would have been a really useful thread, and I would have been much quicker to respond to the OP, if it hadn't so quickly turned angry and ugly. And that was not the fault of the OP, btw. The more noise we have to get through to get to the signal, the longer these things take and the harder it is to determine if there are things I can do to help.
Originally posted by Jutlander
I think people expected A) the names to be correct and B) the names to be attached to characters who were at the very least the right gender and type of Exalt.
A) I agree, and we are taking steps to be sure that the names are as they were submitted. B) then they are expecting something that is not the stated nature of the reward. I am more than happy to help backers reconcile problems they have with their reward so that any misunderstandings can be resolved.
Originally posted by Lord Pomposity
Since the only guarantee was that you would be able to submit your character's name and description, you received the entirety of your reward the moment you clicked the "submit" button on the backer survey. An absolutely literal reading of the text you quoted--which is the sort of reading OPP apparently uses--creates no expectation that your submission will be read by anyone, let alone used.
We use a _specific_ and exact wording for our Rewards precisely because some backers build up the extent of the reward beyond the intention. I do not try and cheat backers out of the intention of the reward as you suggest here.
Originally posted by auroradragonkaya
So as someone who baked the Novia Novel level, I DO want to know what's going on. I actually chose it over slightly higher levels because in the description on the tier rewards, it said "In addition, we will open up a Reward Tier to allow backers to submit their character's names and description for inclusion in the text of the novel" and I actually assumed the part where it only mentioned the name on the tier itself was simply a matter of abbreviation. (I've backed a lot of kickstarters and it's pretty common for the tier rewards to be concise but more specific descriptions posted on the main page.)
Not expecting the novel to be about my character, but I was sort of expecting the cameo to feel like my character, and I'm a bit worried it won't now.
Also, specifically mentioning and asking for the description made me think that, well, it was going to be used.
Not to say I wouldn't have backed a unique tier, but I probably wouldn't have done this one. (Probably a higher tiered one, in fact.) And... now I'm more nervous then excited about it. (I hope this doesn't sound spoiled, I'm just trying to explain why I was confused about it.)
You are absolutely right to ask considering this whole thread. The Novia novel was discussed ahead of time with Jess Hartley, and the idea of getting in their descriptions was part of that discussion. Anthologies, by their nature of being written by multiple authors, make it a lot harder to insist on that level of detail, but Jess was open to names and descriptions. That still doesn't mean she'll be working in their backgrounds or anything like that, so they may show up in a place you never had them go to, or similar things like that.
Originally posted by nalak42
Did what I say not come across as that? I mean I actually backed at the other cameo, so I know what you're talking about as far as how the survey was put together. I was just trying to explain why I figured a description was asked for because we had one person arguing that asking for character descriptions without using them was disingenuous.
I wasn't correcting you, I was adding to what you had pretty much correctly posted.
@Weimann Thanks for coming back onto this. I was not even going to enter this thread because the OP seemed to be a pretty fair way to vent, it was the shift with other posters that made it necessary to post. But since I'm here, have you thought of using that "Contact Me" button near my photo on the KS page and asking us to change the name you sent in? Whether or not you feel like the wording was kind of ambiguous, the PDF that was sent out is just a PDF - we can change things now that you know what the reward actually entails.
Similarly, I'm checking with the editor and writer about what happened to the Seven Steps part of Serafina's name. My guess is that someone in the chain of relaying the names didn't realize it was part of her full name because of lack of familiarity with Exalted naming styles. But again, this is something we could and would look into and change at this stage of the PDF.
@nalak42 I mentioned in the Backer Survey that the backers could include a brief description if they wanted (and several did not) in order to allow authors to use that info to better grasp the character if the writer found that useful. Again, we did not mandate that the description be used, because we have no idea going into these stories just what direction the writing would take and wanted the writers to have as much freedom as possible. ANY description that had to be made to work in their story puts pressure on the story to conform to our needs and not the writer's and we won't do that at this Reward Tier level - which is why the Reward Tier has been phrased as it has.
While I regret any backer disappointment with this reward, backers received the intended reward of getting their character's name in the book, which is exactly as the Reward Tier is worded:
"In addition, your character's name will be used as a name within the text of the EX3 Fiction Anthology
There was no rip-off, no bait and switch, no backhanded disdain, no miscommunication on our part. We delivered the reward exactly as it was described, and exactly as we have on all of our other Kickstarters that have had this Reward Tier- which is pretty much every one of them. These Reward Tiers are a never before possible chance to get backers' chosen names into an official WW/Onyx Path book, and the level of pledge reflects that.
The other Reward Tiers mentioned by the OP started at $435 and that pledge amount reflected that those visual representations would need to have a tighter level of communication to get them to the representation as promised in their pledge:
"Plus we will include your character in one or more panels as an "extra" in the EX3 Comic Book as per your description and/or sketch. We reserve the right to modify character designs for appropriateness with the rest of the comic.
Even higher Reward Tiers are priced as they are because of the expected amount of work needed to fulfill the reward as written.