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[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
BrilliantRain wrote:
While I agree with the other posters, to me, the big problem with the Martial Arts Ability has been that it implicitly says that "everything that is not me is not Martial Arts." Which just seems wrong for a Kung Fu action game.


It's really not. The intention is that Martial Arts as an Ability is saying "This is where systems bearing ancient tradition go; where your style adheres to strict in-style weaponry and where you may not proceed to learn pre-existing systems without a sifu, a technique scroll, etc. These are the fighting forms long since mastered and laid down, time-honored techniques such as Parallel Parking which are always the same, and which form standing systems of enlightenment based on tradition and adherence to form."

Also, rather than using the legalistic interpretation of a"martial art" as any system of fighting, it is referring to the martial arts in the Asian tradition, as systems grounded in mysticism, transcendentalism, and zen ideals, not just a scientific catechism on dueling with a foil (fencing) or the system of breaking bones and winning rounds that is muay thai or to a lesser extent boxing. These last few examples fall under the modern day definition of martial arts, the legalistic definition. The one Exalted uses is the one that treats the martial arts as mystical, religious, spiritual systems as well as systems for fighting.

What a division of the Martial Arts Ability from other combat Abilities gives you is freedom from these ideals, not ignorance of them. Solar Melee Charms do not exist in any sort of a style, they are not universally on record or on tap; you can learn them as a matter of intuition. You don't need a mentor or a scroll and you are not limited to a form weapon (and a form weapon requires the correct stance* to use it 100% of the time, which means every regular attack you roll adheres to the slashing, stabbing, striking techniques of the style). Melee has none of these limitations, so that you can interpret it any way you want to. You can completely remove the mysticism component, the style and tradition component, and treat the techniques as something you came up with, and because the Charms do not adhere to form weapon rules nor do they rely on Form charms, you can fight with no stance or any stance, you can slash in any direction or in any way. You can be all forms, no form, one form. The non MA Charms are whatever you want them to look like and wherever you want them to come from. You can do Kain's Penta Thrust one second, toss away your spear, draw your sword and do Kenshin's final attack the next, and both are using IWA. You can't do that with a Martial Arts multiattack, because one weapon will work for it and the other will not.

*If you try to use snake swords, section staves, rope darts, nunchakus, and other style specific weaponry without using their associated style stances and accepted techniques of attack and defense you will die hilariously.

[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 3/4/2013
I keep parsing this as "Bronze age Cimmeria."

[#][F] Holden - 3/4/2013
kitsune9tails wrote:
I think an important part of the OPs question is: what do the Infernal Exalted do for the Yozis that Akuma do not?


There's an assumption here.

[#][F] Holden - 3/4/2013
No. In 1e, Alchies just had a tiny core of very excited fans (I was one of them), and then majority of the fanbase just didn't care about them at all.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Gayo wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

Here's the way I see it. The setting creates the system, not vice versa. Notice how we have Archery instead of Firearms, Ride instead of Drive, and we have Sail, period? Martial arts—as in, systemized fighting styles as well as mystical routes to enlightenment—are a pillar of the setting, which is why we have the Martial Arts Ability.

It's not really helpful to the conversation when somebody looks at a single decision and goes "BAD IDEA" without saying why they think it's a bad idea. There aren't enough statements in place to even make that call, so you have to assume they're working off the idea that we're going to redo Martial Arts exactly like 2e, which is a humorous position.


As you say, it's hard to judge what 3e's MA will look and feel like at this point, and I reserve judgment until I have a lot more information -- the final book, preferably. But historically, the thing I disliked about Martial Arts (the Ability) is that the other combat skills were divided by function in a fairly literal sense, while MA was a kind of "thematic span" of fighting in general -- it was a specific flavour of fighting meant to evoke genre themes, but neither the themes in question nor (eventually) the ability itself adhered to the division we saw in the rest of the Dawn skillset. The fact that, at times, the distinction of "is this Martial Arts or [other Dawn Ability]" came down to a narrative/genre distinction seemed out of sync with the rest of the skillset, which was largely exclusive and functionally-oriented.


Care to elaborate on the distinction with specific examples?

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
marin wrote:
Heart Attacks wrote:
EndlessKng wrote:
Holden wrote:
The question is not "what will they take out," it is "what will they put in?"


Holden said the above to concerns over the lack of Devil Tiger apotheosis options that seem to arise from the lack of deriving charms from Yozis. Where before you had the options to mix and match themes, and eventually develop your own themes, now it seems like the coolest thing about the Infernals isn't going to be a thing.


But that thing was really cool. People really loved Infernals! There may be new approaches to things in 3e, but man, I hope the Build-Your-Own-Exalt thing shows up in the canon somewhere. I don't think the devs are going to forget how popular that was.


It may be worth mentioning a) that John's cited the idea of the Infernals being sovereign figures with world-engines in their souls crusading against reality with approval, and b) that in the Onyx Path New Year's Eve chat, John talks about the new 'universal' Exalted being malleable, able to do what you want them to do, something they learned was a big success with players while observing Infernals and Devil-Tigers.

Take that as you will.


Man, my favorite Charm is Space Monster Scream.



[#][F] Holden - 3/4/2013
JimB wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I am not going to offer any hints about Infernals in third edition, save to reiterate assurances that I have not forgotten them.

Buffalo Bill never forgot that woman in the pit in his basement, either.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I accuse you of kidnapping and planning to murder Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals so you can skin its corpse and wear its hide as a lady-suit.


Adorjan would have wanted it that way.

[#][F] Holden - 3/4/2013
Mostlyjoe wrote:
Just like the Alchemicals were the darlings of 1E, the Infernals are 2E's darlings. They are in the roster but are for later down the new line.


Man, the Alchies flopped in 1e. If 1e had a darling, it was the Abyssals.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Chaka wrote:
Isator Levi wrote:
Chaka wrote:
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.


I'd think you'd want to get closer to it than ever.


That fucking moon.

Seriously though. Of all the hills people can die on (I love that's a phrase now), 'whether or not Martial Arts is an Ability' is pretty much one of the most nonsensical. No-one has any idea how any part of the system works. What's in a name? Jesus.


Here's the way I see it. The setting creates the system, not vice versa. Notice how we have Archery instead of Firearms, Ride instead of Drive, and we have Sail, period? Martial arts—as in, systemized fighting styles as well as mystical routes to enlightenment—are a pillar of the setting, which is why we have the Martial Arts Ability.

It's not really helpful to the conversation when somebody looks at a single decision and goes "BAD IDEA" without saying why they think it's a bad idea. There aren't enough statements in place to even make that call, so you have to assume they're working off the idea that we're going to redo Martial Arts exactly like 2e, which is a humorous position.



[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
I am not going to offer any hints about Infernals in EX3, save to reiterate assurances that I have not forgotten them.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
BrilliantRain wrote:
IIrc, in the Ask the Magnus thread, he stated that he Exalted by being the first person to ever successfully use the Eye of Autochthon.

I would tend to assume that this sort of thing will likely be the rule rather than the exception in 3e.


Well, perhaps only the first we know about.

But yes, he spoke of "breaking a code" on the eye and removing its "ban" on prayers. Which means it was being used to block prayers from reaching the gods.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
GSD wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

None of this really suggests why he was a Dawn rather than a Zenith, but the strong implication is that Panther was going to find out as his story went on.

I think you got that backwards, boss.

(Unless that is a new spoiler! Gasp, in 3e, the old sigs are all in different castes! Dace is an eclipse! /silly)


Tai-po, the man who killed my sifu.



[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Ghosthead wrote:
MorkaisChosen wrote:
OK, I'm a 2e kid, more familiar with the Panther of the chapter comics and WHAT THE CHRIST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, and you just made me go "holy shit that guy's actually pretty cool."

Wanting more is a wonderful driver of heroic stories.
He is pretty cool. He's not like a "hero who achieves supernatural levels of awesomeness through nothing more than hard work and dedication" at all.

He's a hero who was chosen by the Unconquered Sun because he was pretty cool and his chutzpah - because of his character, not because he worked hard for it.

You can regard that as earned, sure, I just do not see it as pure "hard work and dedication" in the sense described by the OP and BrilliantRain's quoted text. Which is my point. He may have worked hard, may have been naturally talented - CB : Zenith isn't really clear. He's just not a character who strove to improve himself and to be the best in world (certainly not in any kind of sustained long term way) and got rewarded for it or anything, or who was Exalted because he strove beyond mortal limits.

If you want to see that as "hard work and dedication", then I guess you can, it just seems more like character to me - particularly in this context. It seems a bit disingeous and specious rhetoric to call what Panther and Havesh have "hard work and dedication". I'm not super interested in word gaming this out though, so whatever helps as a model.


You are working off a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Solars are Chosen from mortals who are amazing and exceptional. Literature does not rely on perfect 100% absolute clarity and can be even more rewarding when it creates a strong supposition and leaves the reader to supply qualitative details. All we needed to know about Panther was the brutal life he led, and just the fact that he was alive, in the prime of his life, and healthy tells us he was a fighting champion. None of this really suggests why he wasn't a Dawn rather than a Zenith, but the strong implication is that Panther was going to find out as his story went on. Unfortunately, that's not how it went down in Panther's 2e art/comics.

So Panther was exceptional, but it's not really clear why he might be a leader. But the remit of the Unconquered Sun to make a righteous world lit a fire deep in his dark and pitiless soul. Mind you, that was not "go out and make a world I would consider righteous." The sparks of the Zenith were there if you looked for them. In EX3 they will have fanned into an inferno.

It doesn't require all the hyperbole you're supplying, and it definitely doesn't come from me.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Ghosthead wrote:
MorkaisChosen wrote:
OK, I'm a 2e kid, more familiar with the Panther of the chapter comics and WHAT THE CHRIST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, and you just made me go "holy shit that guy's actually pretty cool."

Wanting more is a wonderful driver of heroic stories.
He is pretty cool. He's not like a "hero who achieves supernatural levels of awesomeness through nothing more than hard work and dedication" at all.

He's a hero who was chosen by the Unconquered Sun because he was pretty cool and his chutzpah - because of his character, not because he worked hard for it.

You can regard that as earned, sure, I just do not see it as pure "hard work and dedication" in the sense described by the OP and BrilliantRain's quoted text. Which is my point. He may have worked hard, may have been naturally talented - CB : Zenith isn't really clear. He's just not a character who strove to improve himself and to be the best in world (certainly not in any kind of sustained long term way) and got rewarded for it or anything, or who was Exalted because he strove beyond mortal limits.

If you want to see that as "hard work and dedication", then I guess you can, it just seems more like character to me - particularly in this context. It seems a bit disingeous and specious rhetoric to call what Panther and Havesh have "hard work and dedication". I'm not super interested in word gaming this out though, so whatever helps as a model.


You are working off a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Solars are Chosen from mortals who are amazing and exceptional. Literature does not rely on perfect 100% absolute clarity and can be even more rewarding when it creates a strong supposition and leaves the reader to supply qualitative details. All we needed to know about Panther was the brutal life he led, and just the fact that he was alive, in the prime of his life, and healthy tells us he was a fighting champion. None of this really suggests why he was a Dawn rather than a Zenith, but the strong implication is that Panther was going to find out as his story went on. Unfortunately, that's not how it went down in Panther's 2e art/comics.

So Panther was exceptional, but it's not really clear why he might be a leader, except the onus the Unconquered Sun put on him to go out and make a righteous world seemed to click with him, to light up some fire deep in his dark and pitiless soul. Mind you, that was not "go out and make a world I would consider righteous." The sparks of the Zenith were there if you looked for them. In EX3 they will have fanned into an inferno.

It doesn't require all the hyperbole you're supplying, and it definitely doesn't come from me.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/3/2013
Zironic wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

I don't know how to parse what you're saying against the existence of singularly phenomenal presidents like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Career efficacy aside, nobody replicates their achievements or their iconicism.


This ultimately comes down to if you believe in Great Man Theory or not.


I'm in the middle.

I know that you can't line up everything Brem Marst did, and copy it to make your own Guild. Some actions can't be reproduced without the right circumstances, and without being every bit as lucky, smart, witty, and lucky as Brem Marst in the same ways as Brem Marst at the same moments.

He founded the Guild and protected it in its formative years from the Scarlet Empress and the Realm, and set an example for the organization to follow. It's not impossible that someone else could have the same success but it is not correct that such people could come by his success simply by doing what Brem did.