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[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Ferrinus wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
Melee is not a mystic system of martial arts. You can pretend it is, but it isn't. The default of Melee is formlessness. You can't actually pass the techniques on to non Solars, and other Solars can learn them completely independently of you, a master, a scroll, etc. They are intuitive traits, not techniques.


I'm not talking about Charms.


I was talking about Charms.

Ferrinus wrote:
I'm personally looking forward to playing a character who uses both Melee and Brawl, since the EX3 writing team has currently tricked me into thinking there might be a legitimate tactical niche for someone capable of both means of combat, but... that would require there to be a Brawl skill.


The advantage of being able to write the system to do whatever I want is that I get to define what it requires.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
CycloneJoker wrote:
John Mørke wrote:


Dude, if you want to add in fencing, archery, and any other kind of combat involving stances and steps and call it martial arts, the world shall not stand in your way...but I am not talking about the legalistic definition, because it has no bearing on Exalted.




And I've said for the third time now that I'm fine with that with regards to Exalted, so...yeah.

Quote:
Martial arts tradition begins at Shaolin temple, where a Hindu monk taught the Buddhists a series of breathing and physical exercises because they were in terrible shape.


I...really want to know who told you this. XD Chinese martial arts (even the spiritual aspects) are so much older than the original Shaolin Temple it isn't even funny.


When you have read as much as I have, details blur. Many say that the legends of Shaolin are just myth. It's still Buddhist monks picking it up from Indian itinerants in most of the lore I have covered, whether they agree or disagree on Shaolin's existence.

(And yes, I am aware there is a present-day Shaolin. There's also Dracula tours in Transylvania.)







[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Zironic wrote:
The staff, spear and sword are kung fu weapons though. The main reason that the 'kung fu' weapons are associated with MA rather then Melee is as far as I understand that they're really bad weapons so you wouldn't want to use them in real combat.


There is a world of difference between a woldo and a legion spear, a Chinese broadsword and a claymore.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Scary Pancakes wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

This isn't fair at all. The oldest martial arts were initially just exercises for ailing monks. You're talking a lot of history you need to pass over before they are "just" fighting styles, and then you have to squint real hard to find any that don't involve ideas like chakra, qi, breathing techniques, meditation...

The earliest recorded form of martial arts are listed in, the Spring and Autumn Annals, a Chinese treatise on war, as techniques for soldiers in the field. At least that what's Wikipedia says. Where did you read that martial arts started as Exorcises for old monks? Because I'm honestly getting pretty interested in the subject/discussion and would love to learn more.


Martial arts tradition begins at Shaolin temple, where a Hindu monk taught the Buddhists a series of breathing and physical exercises because they were in terrible shape.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
CycloneJoker wrote:
John Mørke wrote:


The martial arts didn't begin in Greece. I will concede that people wrestled and probably punched each other for millions and millions of years before China and India existed. But the martial arts started in China and got their spiritual components from India.



Asian martial arts didn't begin in Greece, no. But the martial arts as a whole belong to more than just China and India...or even Asia. The Maori of New Zealand have mau rakau; a martial art that's old as dirt and even has strong spiritual elements like the traditional fighting arts of China, India, and Japan.


...Also I THINK India developed both its fighting arts and the spiritual elements to go along with them before the Chinese did, but don't quote me on that one. XD


Bleh, the curse of being passionate about this stuff. We're probably going to keep talking past each other about this so I'll just drop it here, much as I love any opportunity to go on blathering about this subject. emotion-5.gif


Dude, if you want to add in fencing, archery, and any other kind of combat involving stances and steps and call it martial arts, the world shall not stand in your way...but I am not talking about the legalistic definition, because it has no bearing on Exalted.


[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Arrakiz wrote:
But for the love of Sol, clarify this: what ability do I roll to hit someone in a bar fight? What skill do I use for impromptu grapples and punches? How can I play my Eclipse if I can't bitch slap peple? Or do I need to be a practitioner of mystical and fabled Nefarious Payback of Violet Pimp style to bitch slap people?

We need a skill for simple, free form unarmed combat. You can roll the mystical and the natural into one skill, but I would really apreciate the clarification that this is the case.


Right now, in 2e, you use Martial Arts. You can lock on a grapple or hit someone in the face. It doesn't require that you know any Charms or have a sifu. A Dawn can get all the way to 5 dots living in the mountains carrying rocks, training under waterfalls, and punching bears.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Coik wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
It's pretty clear that the MA ability has had a troubled history.


Years of playing Sidereals has left me with near-psychotic, Gollum-like mood swings in regards to Martial Arts. Sometimes I love the concept of mystical Martial Arts (which was the attitude I entered Exalted with) and sometimes I utterly loathe it with every fiber of my blackened soul and wish nothing more than to light the very concept of Martial Arts on fire, then douse it just so I can light it on fire again.


Why did they bother you so much as a Sidereal player?

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Sam cw wrote:
It sounded like you were saying Martial Arts was going to be both a sub-system and an Ability in 3E, which had me worried.


Which part of that worries you and why?

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
CycloneJoker wrote:
John Mørke wrote:


This isn't fair at all. The oldest martial arts were initially just exercises for ailing monks. You're talking a lot of history you need to pass over before they are "just" fighting styles, and then you have to squint real hard to find any that don't involve ideas like chakra, qi, breathing techniques, meditation...



Well, Pankration wasn't an exercise for ailing monks, if memory serves. emotion-5.gif More seriously; things like qigong and meditation go BEYOND the martial arts in Asian culture--they pretty much suffused sweeping elements of their lifestyles. That the martial arts as developed in those nations came to include such elements is just a consequence of that.

But like I said, I'm not interested in doing in the wizard with regards to the pop culture definition of martial arts; I fully support what you want to do with it here, do not misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that "martial arts = a formalized system by which men can be trained to fight in a specific manner" isn't in any way, shape, or form a modern invention.


The martial arts didn't begin in Greece. I will concede that people wrestled and probably punched each other for millions and millions of years before China and India existed. But the martial arts started in China and got their spiritual components from India.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Ferrinus wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

Melee unarmed? Nah.


But, why.


Because Melee encompasses weaponry. Why can't you use Linguistics to build a spaceship?

Ferrinus wrote:
Why would "Martial Arts" be the ability to fight in a proscribed, mystical way (but one you HAD to learn from someone or something else)


Because that's what martial arts are in the sources Exalted draws on.

Ferrinus wrote:
but also the ability to fight with your bare hands?


1e had Brawl. I think most people agree that the removal of Brawl was problematic. (I take it that you're really asking, "Why do I have to fight using a mystic spirit kung fu unarmed when I would rather not?")

Ferrinus wrote:
Meanwhile, "Melee" is the ability to fight in a proscribed, mystical way (which you learned from someone else OR came up with yourself),


Melee is not a mystic system of martial arts. You can pretend it is, but it isn't. The default of Melee is formlessness. You can't actually pass the techniques on to non Solars, and other Solars can learn them completely independently of you, a master, a scroll, etc. They are intuitive traits, not techniques.

Ferrinus wrote:
so long as those held weapons aren't kind of weird? Like, what, my character can't fight with hook sword except in a proscribed, mystical way?


Meleeing with a section staff, rope dart, and other weapons that are the sole province of martial arts and require specific stances, training, etc., is outlawed because those are properties of martial arts in a game with a Martial Arts Ability. What you're butting up against is the fact that is staring you in the face: Melee is no martial style at all, it is just how good you are with a sword (or spear, or other not-essentially kung fu weapon). Personally, as an ST, I doubt I would fuss about hook swords. I certainly would let someone do Melee Charms using a daikatana. It really just depends on how well the weapon can be used when you take away the hard-coding of stances and forms and steps. Some weapons should and some shouldn't. The rules reflect this in the limitations of Melee applicable weapons and the rules have always made sense on that score.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Sam cw wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
Arrakiz wrote:
I have 3 problems with John's idea.


It's not an idea, it's the correct interpretation of the ideas laid down in 1e and then rejiggered into 2e a bit strangely after they got rid of Brawl.



But is it a good idea?


It's pretty clear that the MA ability has had a troubled history. I am able to entertain an idea without accepting it, and discuss an idea without espousing it.

Sam cw wrote:
Don't all the combat Abilities have equal rights to be (or not be) Martial Arts?


Not going to say what we're doing, no matter how much you ask, lol.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
CycloneJoker wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

Also, rather than using the legalistic interpretation of a"martial art" as any system of fighting, it is referring to the martial arts in the Asian tradition, as systems grounded in mysticism, transcendentalism, and zen ideals, not just a scientific catechism on dueling with a foil (fencing) or the system of breaking bones and winning rounds that is muay thai or to a lesser extent boxing. These last few examples fall under the modern day definition of martial arts, the legalistic definition. The one Exalted uses is the one that treats the martial arts as mystical, religious, spiritual systems as well as systems for fighting.


To be fair, the historical Asian definition of martial arts (bugei, wu, etc...) pretty much was basically any formally transmitted fighting system as well. It's not a modern invention; it's older than the pop culture definition that Exalted uses.

And to be honest? I'm fine with that; I think Exalted SHOULD use the pulpy pop-culture definition of martial arts that you're talking about here. It fits the genre and is entirely appropriate. (And if form weapons are still a thing, it won't ALL be nothing but punching and kicking anyway, though if that's the case I am exceedingly interested in seeing how it ends up interacting with the rest of the system.)


This isn't fair at all. The oldest martial arts were initially just exercises for ailing monks. You're talking a lot of history you need to pass over before they are "just" fighting styles, and then you have to squint real hard to find any that don't involve ideas like chakra, qi, breathing techniques, meditation...

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
GSD wrote:
I reject all implications that alligators are not master martial artists. Alligators are fierce, man.
I am only being partially silly here. Bears knowing kung fu is awesome and terrifying.

(Also making your student watch tigers for days, practicing and mimicking their moves ...and then throwing your student into a pit with them, to fight to the death, is an excellent way to stunt teaching a Tiger Style charm.)


If you look at 2e from the perspective of a myth, it makes perfect sense. Someone created Mantis Style by watching a mantis fight and turned its techniques and stances into a martial art. Animals using Martial Arts rolls harmonizes with the mythic feel of the setting.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Arrakiz wrote:
I have 3 problems with John's idea.


It's not an idea, it's the correct interpretation of the ideas laid down in 1e and then rejiggered into 2e a bit strangely after they got rid of Brawl.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/5/2013
Sam cw wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
BrilliantRain wrote:
While I agree with the other posters, to me, the big problem with the Martial Arts Ability has been that it implicitly says that "everything that is not me is not Martial Arts." Which just seems wrong for a Kung Fu action game.


It's really not. Martial Arts as an Ability is saying "This is where systems bearing ancient tradition go; where your style adheres to strict in-style weaponry and where you may not proceed to learn pre-existing systems without a sifu, a technique scroll, etc. These are the fighting forms long since mastered and laid down, time-honored techniques such as Parallel Parking which are always the same, and which form standing systems of enlightenment based on tradition and adherence to form."

Also, rather than using the legalistic interpretation of a"martial art" as any system of fighting, it is referring to the martial arts in the Asian tradition, as systems grounded in mysticism, transcendentalism, and zen ideals, not just a scientific catechism on dueling with a foil (fencing) or the system of breaking bones and winning rounds that is muay thai or to a lesser extent boxing. These last few examples fall under the modern day definition of martial arts, the legalistic definition. The one Exalted uses is the one that treats the martial arts as mystical, religious, spiritual systems as well as systems for fighting.

What a division of the Martial Arts Ability from other combat Abilities gives you is freedom from these ideals, not ignorance of them. Solar Melee Charms do not exist in any sort of a style, they are not universally on record or on tap; you can learn them as a matter of intuition. You don't need a mentor or a scroll and you are not limited to a form weapon (and a form weapon requires the correct stance* to use it 100% of the time, which means every regular attack you roll adheres to the slashing, stabbing, striking techniques of the style). Melee has none of these limitations, so that you can interpret it any way you want to. You can completely remove the mysticism component, the style and tradition component, and treat the techniques as something you came up with, and because the Charms do not adhere to form weapon rules nor do they rely on Form charms, you can fight with no stance or any stance, you can slash in any direction or in any way. You can be all forms, no form, one form. The non MA Charms are whatever you want them to look like and wherever you want them to come from. You can do Kain's Penta Thrust one second, toss away your spear, draw your sword and do Kenshin's final attack the next, and both are using IWA. You can't do that with a Martial Arts multiattack, because one weapon will work for it and the other will not.

*If you try to use snake swords, section staves, rope darts, nunchakus, and other style specific weaponry without using their associated style stances and accepted techniques of attack and defense you will die hilariously.


That's cool, but why is all that tied to punching people? Couldn't it work just fine as a sub-system that can work with all the combat Abilities?


*Throws a smoke bomb.*