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[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
AmineHsu wrote:
I.... am a little confused about what this charm does... If you're already bestest buds with the King, why do you need this charm? Couldn't you just ask him to do it?

I'm guessing I'm missing some nuance that will be apparent if in the context of the system.

Anyways, sorry to be kinda negative, I'm super glad you guys are doing this! Looking forward to tomorrow.


Positive Intimacy doesn't equal best buds. Also, having a positive Intimacy doesn't mean you roll over for someone who asks you to do something that might be particularly difficult.

You can convince a person to change their ways and accept new behaviors through hard work and lots of social influence. Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe is like throwing a thunderbolt, comparatively. (But it still takes a lot of work.)





[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Omicron wrote:
Is my understanding correct? I like it.


You have the right of it!

Omicron wrote:
As always, I find myself somewhat puzzled by the notion of Leader and its scope. If I want to instill a new Defining Principle in the poor, the beggars and the downtrodden, must I find some King of Thieves to speak to first?


I have designed Socialize to be very powerful, but it has two main limitations.

1) It may require a definite social group in order to use it, as Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe does.

2) It may require the context of a social construct or scenario.

Some of the Charms are individual, person-to-person Social influence Charms, most of which fall into group 2.

If you want to inflict a taboo on a lot of individual beggars who aren't a group, you will struggle. Generally, though, I think you can find someone who you can identify as a leader, even in a den of thieves or a barrow of homeless. Alternately, you can promote someone to the role.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Hermes12 wrote:
First of all thanks for the spoiler pledge I've been boxed in with excitement about the product and its great to see its first crunchy spoiler.

Obviously as you said in terms of how this balnces in the rest of the mechanics its hard to see the blance fo the charm but I trust you gys to get that right. As for the flavour and effect of hte charm I like the improvements in the wording. Although the intial effect is created artficially by the Solar I like how it's lasting effects are quite organic. The need to reinforce the Taboo with a logical explaination or for it to be corroded by external pressures is great for roleplaying opportunity with groups that have loyalty to your character.


You are seeing the edge of a much sleeker system that depends far more heavily on organic roleplaying and logical storytelling, with mechanics that act as very natural, enjoyable rails.

[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 1/29/2013
There were two obvious problems with the way oWoD handled metaplot:

1) The relentless progression of time. Say it is January 2005, and a book has just been released that happens to mention some particularly interesting thing about Detroit in Werewolf, some novel sept structure or something. It catches your interest. You know that in June 2005, Rage Across Detroit is due out. Now you're looking forward to it.

But wait! In APRIL 2005, some other book has a big vampire rampage across Detroit and devastate the local werewolf population. June 2005 rolls around and sure enough, it's about post-rampage Detroit. Whatever you were looking forward to is gone, and will never receive coverage, because the oWoD metaplot progressed relentlessly forward.

2) Written like a serial. The oWoD metaplot was written like a dramatic arc—plot twists and unexpected surprises and an attempt to keep people guessing and wanting to buy the next book to see what came next. A CLAN WILL FALL! THE ANCIENTS WILL RISE! Etc. This meant it was hard to incorporate material from it into your games.

Ex3's timeline isn't either of those things. We're not going to say that just because the Mask of Winters conquers the Marukani in RY 773 in a book published in July, from August onward we're never covering the unconquered Marukani again. (Example pulled out of my ass; I know of no plans to write up the Mask's conquest of anyone or anywhere besides Thorns.) The setting is the whole timeline, and we're not devoted to covering it linearly. Nor will it be written to incorporate a lot of SHOCKING TWEESTS. It'll mostly be about portraying the progression of organizational politics over time, so that by example players and STs will have a better idea of how large-scale organizations interact over time. When the PCs start grabbing hold of large-scale organizations, STs will be better able to run the world's reactions.

So I suspect that stuff that WOULD count as a shocking tweest, like an Autochthonian incursion, will mostly be kept out of the timeline. That way STs who want to use it can actually shiock the players with it.

Exalted has so many things to wow you with, we don't need to do it with a shocking and unpredictable metaplot. To the extent that the timeline is meant to excite and impress, we want to excite and impress you with well-thought and useful it is.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
THE CHARM PREVIEWS HAVE BEGUN

These will lack something in system context for now—we're not QUITE ready to explain the core engine yet—but should still manage to communicate something of the idea of what we're doing, and you should certainly be able to see what the Charm does. It is my plan to give you a Charm a day as we race to finish the development of this awesome, awesome book. This is presented in the spirit of getting the community into what we're doing and getting your feedback on what you think is cool and exciting.

Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe
Cost: 3m, 1wp; Mins: Socialize 3, Essence 2; Type: Simple
Keywords: Compulsion
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: King of All Courts Stance
The Exalt speaks with the tongue of kings and the heart of heroes. All know that her word is law. The Solar may use this Charm to make an automatically successful Instill Action against the leader of a group, granting him a Defining Principle in favor of or against a behavior designated by the character. This Charm requires that the target have a Major or Defining positive Intimacy toward the Lawgiver. After being affected by this Charm, the leader will immediately order the offending action to be ceased, or will order specified behavior to commence; he will also begin to set policy for his group reflecting the Solar's wishes. However, the taboos inflicted by the Solar are tied to her relevance to the group. Unless the group directly benefits from accepting the Principle the Lawgiver has bestowed on them, they will cease practicing this behavior as soon as she leaves the group's area of influence. Defining Principles created by this Charm cannot be weakened normally; instead they vanish when the Exalt is no longer present, returning only when she next interacts with the group's leader, so long as his positive Intimacy remains, and only if she recalls the behavior she once outlawed or inflicted.

On Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe
Groups affected by Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe may come to eventually accept a behavior or a ban if there are benefits to doing so. A Lawgiver might be able to curb a ritual of human sacrifice for the duration of her stay, but as soon as she leaves, the group will have to contend with a spirit who is likely wroth over the delay in sacrifices. In such circumstances, there is no clear value to the Lawgiver's edict, and no reason to continue the practice. Furthermore, other beneficial behaviors are not immediately obvious; a Lawgiver who wants a group to realize the wondrous benefits of regular bathing should remain in the area long enough for these benefits to materialize.

[#][F] Holden - 1/29/2013
MrInsecure wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
kitsune9tails wrote:
I think John is talking about the difference between 'High Powered' as in "Redraw the map with enough effort, luck, planning and skill" and 'High Powered' as in "Split the planet in half with a karate chop".

Fist of the North Star, not Dragon Ball Z.

I could, of course, be wrong.


I'm not throwing any qualia out there. I am asking for specific examples. If you say you want it to be high level and I say "it will be high level," you might never get what you want because our ideas are different. If you don't abandon silly words that mean nothing because they are subjective values with no consensus, I can't understand what you are talking about. Not you personally, but just posters in general.

Or, instead of complaining about people not giving specific examples- because we don't have specific examples at this point and can only talk in generalities- why not try to answer the question as though we were all reasonable individuals capable of some degree of syntactical interpretation?

For example: someone asks if the game will be high-powered. Instead of saying "I can't answer that question because the term 'high-powered' is vague," like you're a computer getting messed up by a missing bracket in the code somewhere, you can say: "well, I'm not sure if I get what you mean by 'high-powered,' but if you're asking about what sorts of things you'll be able to accomplish at Essence X, you can generally expect..."

Or you could just say "I can't really answer that question right now, sorry," and ignore us. But telling us to refine our wording just makes me feel like I'm in philosophy class again... or like I'm playing an old text adventure game and can't remember the right command to examine a rock (it's LOOK you idiot, LOOK!).


Uh, or you could just specify whether you consider "high-powered" to mean "able to whip the ass of 20 men barehanded," (any character capable of this in WoD would be very stompy indeed) or "able to single-handedly fight armies," (pretty much nobody in WoD is capable of that, or most games for that matter-- and it is certainly something you can do in Exalted!) or "able to smash mountains in half with a single punch" (which is pretty freaking out there even for Exalted... but not, notably, for Aberrant, or Nobilis).

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
MrInsecure wrote:
For example: someone asks if the game will be high-powered. Instead of saying "I can't answer that question because the term 'high-powered' is vague," like you're a computer getting messed up by a missing bracket in the code somewhere, you can say: "well, I'm not sure if I get what you mean by 'high-powered,' but if you're asking about what sorts of things you'll be able to accomplish at Essence X, you can generally expect..."


What I said amounts to "I don't know what you mean by high level, so give specific examples." If that doesn't satisfy you, I apologize. But it doesn't warrant the condescending insulting bullshit you just posted.

[#][F] Plague of Hats - 1/28/2013
Vidiian wrote:
That's not magical thinking. At all.

Oh, I wasn't thinking of the fallacy or whatever. God damn the internet, can't let a phrase be!
Quote:
It's more like a reading of the scientific method, as applied to choosing rules systems.

No, it's certainly not that. "I believe this will fail because of a past lack of attempts to meaningfully change the system" is entirely accurate in describing what Fanservice is saying. Because all past iterations have done little to really change the system, starting from a premise that they did is automatically wrong.

[#][F] Holden - 1/28/2013
Gayo wrote:
Holden is on the record (well, the web forum record) as saying that they had the freedom to choose any sort of system they wanted or build a new one from scratch, and stuck with ST because it's familiar and intuitive and has some probabilistic traits they liked. Honestly, I think keeping the Ability/Attribute spread was more perverse than keeping ST; I'm cool with ST if you distill it down to the most basic level.


Keeping Attribute/Ability spreads was a recognition that we can make the core engine work fine almost no matter what we do there; the Attribute/Ability spreads are primarily useful as channels for Charm design, and the EX2 spread was pretty good for that.

[#][F] Plague of Hats - 1/28/2013
Fanservice wrote:
Sure and 3E may be the first game in the Storyteller's systems many, many attempts to actually get high level play right. I'm just saying that, on past track record, I don't have a ton of faith on that because the Storyteller system is geared towards Urban Occult (Which it's done pretty well), not high powered Fantasy (Which it's died on its ass trying to do several times).

I don't get the thinking behind "Hey, let's base our system on something that has been shown to not work with what we're doing repeatedly.". It feels like trying to get a round peg into a square hole. They might be able to do it with some clever woodwork but I feel like they're really making it unnecessarily hard on themselves.

This is straight up magical thinking. You have faith we won't change something because people in the past didn't change it. I don't know what to say to you.

Quote:
Quote:

Fan_Service


Wow that's ugly. Just type it the way I do, TVTropes and Wikipedia agrees with me here so it's basically a fact.

Sorry. Got you confused with another user.

[#][F] Plague of Hats - 1/28/2013
Day_Dreamer wrote:
The issue is that we (fanbase) lack any capacity to see if the basic system is fun or not right now. At the end of the day, every dev statement so far on why 3E will be good has basically come down to "trust us."

See, no, that's not "the issue." That's an issue, and one that I can't really speak against because, hey, it's not all that unreasonable.

But what I responded to up above was not that. Fan_Service is affording the Storyteller system some mystic quality that does not exist, fetishizing its past failures and shaking them like a talisman at the future.

Let me be clear: The Storyteller system has changed very little for two decades. There are good and bad reasons for it, but the system has simply remained very consistent in that time. This is not because the system is some magical shackle that prevents change.

[#][F] Plague of Hats - 1/28/2013
Fanservice wrote:
A revamp of the mechanics made me perk up, but then I heard it's still using the Storyteller system and I felt sad again. The Storyteller has had many stabs at trying to do high power theatrics and failed miserably every time. It's a system designed for Urban Occult RP and it does this reasonably well. Abberant, Scion and Exalted are not Urban Occult (Well maybe Scion is. Kinda.) and they've fucked it up every time because of this weird system they're shackled too that falls to bits the moment it gets near high power play.

Yeah. It's like how Palladium Fantasy and all its descendants demonstrate that Palladium systems are totally crap, and has nothing to do with the fact that the system designer just doesn't have the capacity or desire to really, drastically change it.

THIS SYSTEM IS CUUUUUUURSED

[#][F] Holden - 1/28/2013
Count Dorku wrote:
Limited Reagent wrote:
The difference between an RPG and a novel is that a novel gives you the answers to your questions by the end of the book, whereas you play and RPG and create the answers to the questions yourself (or the ST does. Whatever).

The trick, you see, the trick to writing good RPG mystery is providing enough clues to not only leave the mystery open enough to create different answers to the proposed questions, but also lead the game players into creating interesting answers.

I hope you can see why your silly Plutonian Exalted example fails in this regard.


The Plutonian-Style Mystery Novel:

"Once upon a time, there were some people in a place. Then one of them was murdered!"


Actually, it would be: "Once upon a time, there were some people in a place. Something happened!"

[#][F] Holden - 1/27/2013
marin wrote:
Holden wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
Oh, Liminals have something to do with death or undeath? So that Alchemicals sidebar about the secret history of soulsteel was really just a cheap, thinly-veiled ploy to seed the product line for another hardcover Manual of Exalted Power. I am so surprised by this turn of events.

It's a shame, really. I want to give third edition a chance, but people just keep reminding me why I'm not impressed with the current writers.


Nope, the two have nothing to do with one another.

Also that sidebar dates back to the first edition Alchemicals book.


Corolinth's claimed this before, and got shot down by John.


Ah. So he's trolling, then.

[#][F] Holden - 1/27/2013
Corolinth wrote:
Oh, Liminals have something to do with death or undeath? So that Alchemicals sidebar about the secret history of soulsteel was really just a cheap, thinly-veiled ploy to seed the product line for another hardcover Manual of Exalted Power. I am so surprised by this turn of events.

It's a shame, really. I want to give third edition a chance, but people just keep reminding me why I'm not impressed with the current writers.


Nope, the two have nothing to do with one another.

Also that sidebar dates back to the first edition Alchemicals book.