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[#][F] Eric Minton - 6/25/2013
Arrakiz wrote:
I mean, it's possible that you didn't expect that the first thing players will want to do is basically build Solars, but simply with no limitations and lots of special, personal bennies... But really, it was kinda obvious it would happen.
Of course some people will do that. Folks have been writing up custom Charms like I Win Exalted Forever Prana since the 1e core came out. This is nothing new.

We won't send developer ninjas to your house to tear up your character sheets when you create your Exigent of The Even More Unconquereder Sun Who Kicked The Unconquered Sun's Ass And Took His Lunch Money. But we aren't going to encourage it either.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 6/25/2013
Zironic wrote:
The defining trait of Exigents is that they have whatever powers you want them to have
Is it?

[#][F] Holden - 6/25/2013
Oh man so many Gifts

[#][F] Holden - 6/25/2013
TCA666 wrote:
Considering they'd be covered in scales, probably horrifying.


Adorifying.

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
JohnDoe244 wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
When you say "I want the Realm to be a beacon of civilization", you are saying "I want everyone else to be uncivilized." When you say "I want the Realm to bring medicine and roads and aqueducts", you are saying "I don't want anyone else to be good at medicine and roads and aqueducts." When you say "I want the Realm to improve the life of its Satrapys", you are saying "I want other nations to be uncivilized, savage places that need to be conquered and ruled by a superior culture, for their own good." Why do you feel that the Realm is axiomatically more civilized than anyone else?

It is not. Putting aside the highly-limited and precious resource of its Exalted (which, again -- while a big deal -- are not as unique to it in 3e, and are not supposed to be as dramatically superior to mortal efforts in 3e), the Realm's civilization isn't overwhelmingly better than anyone else. They don't have a unique understanding of architecture or aqueducts or roads or medicine. They're not the only people who can build these things. You don't need Exalted to build these things

Replace "The Realm" with "The Exalted" and you get a feeling for how I take that statement.

Then replace "The Exalted" with "The Solar Exalted". And if you still agree with your argument, then you're expressing an interesting game concept. And if you don't agree with your argument, I'ma call Mary-Sue.


(holds out a big jar with MARY-SUE JAR written on it) Go on, put in a dollar. >:|

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Fanservice wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that absolutely no one, including me, in this thread is saying Imperialism was a good thing.


There are certainly people in this thread asking me to say that in print.

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Iozz-Sothoth wrote:
Ghosthead wrote:

It's heroic and fun, and this is a game which is about being heroic and awfully fun. At the least, people should be able to take this narrative and play it straight without too much difficulty from the books.


I'm not sure that I'd be really comfortable playing 'and the White Dynast's Burden is correct!', to be honest, and I'm a DB fan.


I sure as hell would not be comfortable writing it.

[#][F] John Mørke - 6/24/2013
Suleri Drals wrote:
Are Exigents limited to the charms or will it be able to have of Exigents based on Sorcery for example ? (But in any event, it is not justifiable because there is no god of sorcery)


Golden rule of Exigent design:

Gods make Exigents. Abstract concepts do not make Exigents.

An Exigent of heroism or an Exigent of sorcery is unworkable.

If you want a certain kind of Exigent, make up a spirit to fit your needs. Note that gods should be more interesting than "the god of sorcery." Don't exclude the political, bureaucratic, and upward/downward mobility that makes the gods interesting. (See also: Ahlat.)

The Chosen of the Incarnae are not Exigents, and the Incarnae will never tap the Exigence. Using the Exigence is not without drawbacks. See also: Ten Sheaves.

Yes, the Dragon-Blooded are real and valid Exalts.



[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Fanservice wrote:
I want the Realm to be a place that could have been great, if not for the flawed personalities that have corrupted the original idea of one kingdom under which everyone lives a full life and a Religion that encourages bloody struggles to kill unfortunate innocents.


"One kingdom under which everyone lives a full life" was never, ever, ever, eeeeever a founding idea for the Realm. The lot of mortals is to struggle and suffer; doing so with stoic acceptance of the hand fate dealt you, and excelling at whatever it is life stuck you with, is what the Realm expects from the common folk. These are the founding ideals of the Realm.

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If it's just a thuggish, jackboot Empire then what's the point in even fighting for it? You've ruined any kind of argument to defend it beyond "Fuck you, I'm stronger so what I say goes." and that's just cartoonishly evil empire right there.


No; that's what empires do. That's what empires are. They exist along a continuum of atrocity, sure-- Rome in Britain managed to be less jam-packed with hideous awfulness* than Belgium's adventures in Africa-- but walking up to other nations, kicking them in the balls, and going "I'm in charge now; anyone have any objections?" is what empires categorically do. It is what definitionally makes you an empire.

* Although certainly not lacking in it-- see Boudica, just off the top of my head.

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You can't argue for naunce and then say,

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The Realm is sharply superior in one and only one respect: It is better at organized violence. That's all.


Because that's saying "They're the biggest thugs with no redeeming features" and that's kind of the opposite of the difficult ethical choices I'd like Exalted to have. There's no reason to not tear down the Realm if their one claim to fame is "We're really good at oppression"


If you're one of the Realm's elites, then you get to benefit from the amazing and beautiful art and culture that all this rapacious behavior feeds. You can wave your hand and say, "Without us, the Lunar Anthema and the Fair Folk and the gods would run amok," and indeed many scions of the Realm legitimately believe that. The better-educated among them even have a number of off-the-cuff dismissals if anyone points out that the Scavenger Lands have managed to hold things together okay with a mutual defense pact rather than all getting conquered by one totalitarian ruler.

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Updates tab on the kickstarter page.

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Also, nobody at any point has suggested the Realm is like Mordor, so every time someone waves that strawman around, it makes it very hard to take their concerns seriously.

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Fanservice wrote:
Aquillion wrote:

The Empress ended the Balorian Crusade using the RDG, not the Realm (and she did it before the Realm even existed.) The rest of the world rebuilt civilization just fine (and again, seriously, treating the Realm as if it has a special unique power to build civilization is terrible as all fuck.) The Realm hasn't done any more aqueduct-building or road-building or sanitation-improvement than anyone else, nor is there any reason to think that they're better at building aqueducts or roads or sanitation than anyone else. (Outside of the Blessed Isle, at least; on the Blessed Isle, they're able to build more infrastructure because they can feed workers using food looted from the periphery. Obviously this comes at the expense of stuff that the people there would have been able to build on their own.)

Why do you think the Realm is capable of building roads and aqueducts and sanitation that other people can't? Why are you axiomatically assigning the Realm the powers of this nebulously defined "civilization" and denying that it can be done as well by anyone else?


Because the Realm has resources other Nations don't


...because it took them from those nations...

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and is full of Dragonblooded Exalts who make excellent administrators.


...of a system designed to efficiently extract the wealth of other nations and feed it into the Realm's ever-hungry maw...

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he idea that the Realm doesn't bother to actually administrate their satraps is really silly to me. They're not meant to all be cackling evil villains, kicking people down silver mines to digs it out with their bare bloody hands.


It rather depends on the satrapy in question. Harborhead requires a lot of administration because the inherent inclination of the local tribal groups is to be cattle-ranchers who frequently raid one another, not to mine tons and tons of jade out of the earth. Medo requires a fair bit of administration because it is basically a hostage-state tied up with the structure of the legions. Chiaroscuro requires next to no Realm administrative investment because it's a huge trade hub that is already competently administrated by the local rulers, who are canny enough to give the Realm a gigantic taste off the top of all profits in exchange for leaving them alone to get on with things otherwise. Most of the Realm presence in Chiaroscuro consists of a few teams of investigators making sure the Tri-Khan doesn't short them on tribute too badly, and a satrap sitting in his gifted palace collecting blowjobs and bribes.

Note that none of these places actually need the Realm to come in and administrate them, and in those situations where the Realm's administrative interference has notably increased or maximized profits or production (Harborhead), that product is not kept by the locals. The local tribes and the Leopard sure as hell aren't getting all that jade that's coming out of the Bent Creek mine.

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The Dragonblood faith doesn't support that kind of behaviour and it's not to their benefit to let their satraps lie undeveloped. It makes no sense beyond being evil for the sake of making them evil.


Indeed-- the Realm does awful things for the sake of profit or duty, not evil.

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I like nuance in my games. I'd like the Realm lands to be alluring beacons of civilization that come with the downsides of an incredibly strict caste system and a building massive civil war that's putting pressure on the satraps to do more than they can handle. I'd like the Dragonblood to see themselves as Noble Heroes, while being powerless to stop those who have twisted their beliefs and virtues in the name of excess, greed and profit without tearing down their own faith. I'd like the Realm to be deeply flawed, but with enough in it that you can see why people would fight for it beyond a simple "We have it pretty good here"

The reason the Realm would build Roads, Aquaducts, bring medicine and all the other beacons of Civilization isn't because they're nice people. It's because they're all things that improve the worth of their lands, they need Roads to move goods. Aquaducts to help feed their people and grow crops, while medicine keeps them alive. That it enhances the lives of those living under their rule is a nice benefit that makes them feel like good rulers and gives them some comfort that they're doing the right thing. Even as they draft up people's sons to go fight an Anathema 'Heresy' forming in the next city over.


Natives of the Blessed Isle are not the only people in Creation who know how to build roads and aqueducts, or who have any medical knowledge, or any idea of complex bureaucratic administration.

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If the Dragonblood are just fucking evil there's no nuance. If anything they look like idiots for not realising that the monstrous things they're doing are monstrous things to do. 2E had a problem where the vast majority of it's NPC's were just being idiots and villains for the sake of giving the PC's something to fix. Let's not repeat that mistake.


You might notice that Exalted had a staff turnover a while back.

[#][F] Holden - 6/24/2013
Sanctaphrax wrote:
Fanservice wrote:
Razor Wolf wrote:

I'm curious, what about it do you not like or think doesn't work for Exalted?


Storyteller System was designed for a kind of Action Horror game where you have a few limited powers and are constantly on the ropes. Every time it's tried to do something high-powered where you have plenty of strong options it falls to pieces because the system it's founded on is simply not designed for that type of game. It's a brutal system where you can die quickly, it doesn't really map to Wuxia heroes with a western flare.

Aberrant, Trinity, Scion, Exalted, High level Mage/Vampires/Werewolf etc. It's never worked before I'm not sure why this attempt is going to be different.


I don't think there's ever been a non-broken White Wolf game. (I'm hardly an expert, though, so I could be wrong.)


EX1 held together fairly well for something as big, powerful, and complex as it was.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 6/24/2013
Omicron wrote:
It's not Mordor; it's Spain in its Golden Age, and the entire world is South America. There are a great many wonderful things to do in golden age Spain, and it's quite a ride to visit it. Unfortunately, you are a Maya priest and Quetzalcoatl told you to go forth and be awesome, and neither the Catholic Church nor the aristocracy and merchants who have sucked your people dry are happy about it.
Or you can play out the adventures of Don Juan, Don Quixote and Critilio, taking Spain's wealth and power as a given without thinking too hard about where it comes from. But the text of Spain: What Columbus Has Wrought won't shy away from spelling out those details.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 6/24/2013
Aquillion wrote:
Like I said above, it's particularly important for DBs because if you start from the mindset that every Exalt should automatically be someone who rewrites the course of history, then every single DB gets full and direct responsibility for the Realm rather than just implicit responsibility -- this is, I think, what's making some people leap from "yeah, it's blood money and if your character really thinks about that kind of thing, recognizes the issues involved, and isn't a monster, they should probably feel at least a bit queasy for benefiting from it" to "if you are part of the Realm, your character is Hitler and you are Hitler for playing them."
“He knew himself, however, from the first, a hero—that is, one with a destiny to fulfill which should shake the world a bit, at its corners.” – Tanith Lee, Death’s Master