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[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 1/29/2013
tluthal wrote:
Stephenls wrote:
tluthal wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
Furthermore, other beneficial behaviors are not immediately obvious; a Lawgiver who wants a group to realize the wondrous benefits of regular bathing should remain in the area long enough for these benefits to materialize.


I read this, and all I could think was "Hi Loq!" XD Which lead to the folllowing in the exalted skype chat I run: [Spoilered for foul language. I normally wouldn't but almost every line is... yeah XD Twilights that'd make sailors blanch are fun.]

"YOU IDIOTIC ASSHOLES, HAVE SOME SOAP AND WATER. NOW GO BATHE. I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL YOU'RE CLEAN."
"NOW SEE HOW MUCH HEALTHIER YOU MORONS ARE?"
"AND HOW MUCH LESS DISGUSTINGLY PUNGENT?!"
"SWEET SOL THIS IS BASIC SHIT YOU CHUCKLEFUCKS."
"AND STOP HAVING SEX WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE SICK FOR LUNA'S SAKE! HOW DO YOU THINK YOU KEEP GETTING THE FOREIGN LESION?!"
"AND HERE. HERE IS SOME SHEEPSGUTS I TURNED INTO A MIRACLE MATERIAL. PUT IT ON YOUR DICK."
"YES I KNOW IT DULLS SENSATION. IT MAKES YOU LAST LONGER AND MAKES YOUR WIFE HAPPY YOU INSENSITIVE IGNORAMUS."
"PLUS IT'S A PROTOTYPE."
And then Loq invented the perfect condom. It requires a thaumaturgical ritual, which leads to...
"OH AND SEND ALL YOUR KIDS TO ME FOR THREE HOURS A DAY. THOSE FUCKERS'LL BE SMARTER, STRONGER, AND GENERALLY BETTER THAN ANY GENERATION IN LIVING MEMORY."


Karkat?


Gilgamesh Wulfenbach.


That's not Gil. That's Karkat Vantas. I would recognize that tone anywhere.

You need to read Homestuck now, I'm afraid. Just set aside some time; it's got a slow start.

[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 1/29/2013
Hm.

Any system that requires an organization to have a codified leader is going to fly in the face of social models where actions arise spontaneously out of larger social trends[1], or where leadership arises out of difficult-to-quantify interactions between a small-to-medium-sized group.

But all this stuff is absurdly difficult to model usefully. You have to accept some level of abstraction.

[1] I'm still reading Seeing Like A State, and it has a pretty convincing argument that the bolsheviks actually had sweet fuck-all to do with inciting or organizing the October Revolution, and were mostly a well-organized group of folks who had convinced themselves that because they had foreseen the revolution, and had spent a lot of time talking and writing publicly about how it was coming, they must be the ones who were causing it, and who then recognized the power vacuum left in its wake and managed to convince enough people after-the-fact that they'd been in charge that they managed to assume control over what was left of the social infrastructure.

[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 1/29/2013
tluthal wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
Furthermore, other beneficial behaviors are not immediately obvious; a Lawgiver who wants a group to realize the wondrous benefits of regular bathing should remain in the area long enough for these benefits to materialize.


I read this, and all I could think was "Hi Loq!" XD Which lead to the folllowing in the exalted skype chat I run: [Spoilered for foul language. I normally wouldn't but almost every line is... yeah XD Twilights that'd make sailors blanch are fun.]

"YOU IDIOTIC ASSHOLES, HAVE SOME SOAP AND WATER. NOW GO BATHE. I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL YOU'RE CLEAN."
"NOW SEE HOW MUCH HEALTHIER YOU MORONS ARE?"
"AND HOW MUCH LESS DISGUSTINGLY PUNGENT?!"
"SWEET SOL THIS IS BASIC SHIT YOU CHUCKLEFUCKS."
"AND STOP HAVING SEX WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE SICK FOR LUNA'S SAKE! HOW DO YOU THINK YOU KEEP GETTING THE FOREIGN LESION?!"
"AND HERE. HERE IS SOME SHEEPSGUTS I TURNED INTO A MIRACLE MATERIAL. PUT IT ON YOUR DICK."
"YES I KNOW IT DULLS SENSATION. IT MAKES YOU LAST LONGER AND MAKES YOUR WIFE HAPPY YOU INSENSITIVE IGNORAMUS."
"PLUS IT'S A PROTOTYPE."
And then Loq invented the perfect condom. It requires a thaumaturgical ritual, which leads to...
"OH AND SEND ALL YOUR KIDS TO ME FOR THREE HOURS A DAY. THOSE FUCKERS'LL BE SMARTER, STRONGER, AND GENERALLY BETTER THAN ANY GENERATION IN LIVING MEMORY."


Karkat?

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Isator Levi wrote:
Omicron wrote:
I am going to afford a minor disappointment: the requirement for the Intimacy to be positive is understandable, lest feeling any emotion whatsoever towards an Exalt leave you wide open to all their powers and you end up with Intimacy-as-weaknesses; but I kinda wish I could just show up at the wedding of the king (who hates me) while wearing a red scarf and steal a kiss from his daughter, thus leading him ban in anger anyone in his kingdom from wearing a red scarf. All to fulfill my long-term (not so) nefarious purposes!


I'd say it would be possible to make a custom Charm to do this.


Yes. Or enlist a Sidereal.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Eldagusto wrote:
Speaking of which are you'all still going to use the phrase Social Combat?


Nawp! It is the Social Influence system now.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Andonno wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
On Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe

Hmm, does this mean other social charms will have a "potential long-term effects" blurb? Or non-social charms?


I will be working these in where I can. :D

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Vidiian wrote:
I like this. A lot. One of the big things I realized I want to see from 3E is for the whole system to be given love and attention, not just the combat-ey parts of it, as 2E seemed to drift into doing at times. This looks like a definite step in that direction and a very good choice for a first Charm spoiler. I can see the limitations and nuances being really interesting to my social-powerhouse players when it comes to interacting with people and populations.

The capitalized words look a little jargon-ey out of context, but then again so do Keywords for Charms, and those were one of the best ideas in 2E (even if the Keyword defenses weren't always the best implemented).


It's so fun to play an Eclipse now. I can't wait til we hit the playtest phase and I get to see people flip. Writing these Charms has been a blast. After I finished Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe, I couldn't wait to show you guys.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
From the word go, Socialize is about establishing context. A basic Charm tells you how people relate to one another in the context of the group. This is the "in" for the Eclipse Caste operator.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
AmineHsu wrote:
I.... am a little confused about what this charm does... If you're already bestest buds with the King, why do you need this charm? Couldn't you just ask him to do it?

I'm guessing I'm missing some nuance that will be apparent if in the context of the system.

Anyways, sorry to be kinda negative, I'm super glad you guys are doing this! Looking forward to tomorrow.


Positive Intimacy doesn't equal best buds. Also, having a positive Intimacy doesn't mean you roll over for someone who asks you to do something that might be particularly difficult.

You can convince a person to change their ways and accept new behaviors through hard work and lots of social influence. Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe is like throwing a thunderbolt, comparatively. (But it still takes a lot of work.)





[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Omicron wrote:
Is my understanding correct? I like it.


You have the right of it!

Omicron wrote:
As always, I find myself somewhat puzzled by the notion of Leader and its scope. If I want to instill a new Defining Principle in the poor, the beggars and the downtrodden, must I find some King of Thieves to speak to first?


I have designed Socialize to be very powerful, but it has two main limitations.

1) It may require a definite social group in order to use it, as Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe does.

2) It may require the context of a social construct or scenario.

Some of the Charms are individual, person-to-person Social influence Charms, most of which fall into group 2.

If you want to inflict a taboo on a lot of individual beggars who aren't a group, you will struggle. Generally, though, I think you can find someone who you can identify as a leader, even in a den of thieves or a barrow of homeless. Alternately, you can promote someone to the role.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
Hermes12 wrote:
First of all thanks for the spoiler pledge I've been boxed in with excitement about the product and its great to see its first crunchy spoiler.

Obviously as you said in terms of how this balnces in the rest of the mechanics its hard to see the blance fo the charm but I trust you gys to get that right. As for the flavour and effect of hte charm I like the improvements in the wording. Although the intial effect is created artficially by the Solar I like how it's lasting effects are quite organic. The need to reinforce the Taboo with a logical explaination or for it to be corroded by external pressures is great for roleplaying opportunity with groups that have loyalty to your character.


You are seeing the edge of a much sleeker system that depends far more heavily on organic roleplaying and logical storytelling, with mechanics that act as very natural, enjoyable rails.

[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 1/29/2013
There were two obvious problems with the way oWoD handled metaplot:

1) The relentless progression of time. Say it is January 2005, and a book has just been released that happens to mention some particularly interesting thing about Detroit in Werewolf, some novel sept structure or something. It catches your interest. You know that in June 2005, Rage Across Detroit is due out. Now you're looking forward to it.

But wait! In APRIL 2005, some other book has a big vampire rampage across Detroit and devastate the local werewolf population. June 2005 rolls around and sure enough, it's about post-rampage Detroit. Whatever you were looking forward to is gone, and will never receive coverage, because the oWoD metaplot progressed relentlessly forward.

2) Written like a serial. The oWoD metaplot was written like a dramatic arc—plot twists and unexpected surprises and an attempt to keep people guessing and wanting to buy the next book to see what came next. A CLAN WILL FALL! THE ANCIENTS WILL RISE! Etc. This meant it was hard to incorporate material from it into your games.

Ex3's timeline isn't either of those things. We're not going to say that just because the Mask of Winters conquers the Marukani in RY 773 in a book published in July, from August onward we're never covering the unconquered Marukani again. (Example pulled out of my ass; I know of no plans to write up the Mask's conquest of anyone or anywhere besides Thorns.) The setting is the whole timeline, and we're not devoted to covering it linearly. Nor will it be written to incorporate a lot of SHOCKING TWEESTS. It'll mostly be about portraying the progression of organizational politics over time, so that by example players and STs will have a better idea of how large-scale organizations interact over time. When the PCs start grabbing hold of large-scale organizations, STs will be better able to run the world's reactions.

So I suspect that stuff that WOULD count as a shocking tweest, like an Autochthonian incursion, will mostly be kept out of the timeline. That way STs who want to use it can actually shiock the players with it.

Exalted has so many things to wow you with, we don't need to do it with a shocking and unpredictable metaplot. To the extent that the timeline is meant to excite and impress, we want to excite and impress you with well-thought and useful it is.

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
THE CHARM PREVIEWS HAVE BEGUN

These will lack something in system context for now—we're not QUITE ready to explain the core engine yet—but should still manage to communicate something of the idea of what we're doing, and you should certainly be able to see what the Charm does. It is my plan to give you a Charm a day as we race to finish the development of this awesome, awesome book. This is presented in the spirit of getting the community into what we're doing and getting your feedback on what you think is cool and exciting.

Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe
Cost: 3m, 1wp; Mins: Socialize 3, Essence 2; Type: Simple
Keywords: Compulsion
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: King of All Courts Stance
The Exalt speaks with the tongue of kings and the heart of heroes. All know that her word is law. The Solar may use this Charm to make an automatically successful Instill Action against the leader of a group, granting him a Defining Principle in favor of or against a behavior designated by the character. This Charm requires that the target have a Major or Defining positive Intimacy toward the Lawgiver. After being affected by this Charm, the leader will immediately order the offending action to be ceased, or will order specified behavior to commence; he will also begin to set policy for his group reflecting the Solar's wishes. However, the taboos inflicted by the Solar are tied to her relevance to the group. Unless the group directly benefits from accepting the Principle the Lawgiver has bestowed on them, they will cease practicing this behavior as soon as she leaves the group's area of influence. Defining Principles created by this Charm cannot be weakened normally; instead they vanish when the Exalt is no longer present, returning only when she next interacts with the group's leader, so long as his positive Intimacy remains, and only if she recalls the behavior she once outlawed or inflicted.

On Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe
Groups affected by Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe may come to eventually accept a behavior or a ban if there are benefits to doing so. A Lawgiver might be able to curb a ritual of human sacrifice for the duration of her stay, but as soon as she leaves, the group will have to contend with a spirit who is likely wroth over the delay in sacrifices. In such circumstances, there is no clear value to the Lawgiver's edict, and no reason to continue the practice. Furthermore, other beneficial behaviors are not immediately obvious; a Lawgiver who wants a group to realize the wondrous benefits of regular bathing should remain in the area long enough for these benefits to materialize.

[#][F] Holden - 1/29/2013
MrInsecure wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
kitsune9tails wrote:
I think John is talking about the difference between 'High Powered' as in "Redraw the map with enough effort, luck, planning and skill" and 'High Powered' as in "Split the planet in half with a karate chop".

Fist of the North Star, not Dragon Ball Z.

I could, of course, be wrong.


I'm not throwing any qualia out there. I am asking for specific examples. If you say you want it to be high level and I say "it will be high level," you might never get what you want because our ideas are different. If you don't abandon silly words that mean nothing because they are subjective values with no consensus, I can't understand what you are talking about. Not you personally, but just posters in general.

Or, instead of complaining about people not giving specific examples- because we don't have specific examples at this point and can only talk in generalities- why not try to answer the question as though we were all reasonable individuals capable of some degree of syntactical interpretation?

For example: someone asks if the game will be high-powered. Instead of saying "I can't answer that question because the term 'high-powered' is vague," like you're a computer getting messed up by a missing bracket in the code somewhere, you can say: "well, I'm not sure if I get what you mean by 'high-powered,' but if you're asking about what sorts of things you'll be able to accomplish at Essence X, you can generally expect..."

Or you could just say "I can't really answer that question right now, sorry," and ignore us. But telling us to refine our wording just makes me feel like I'm in philosophy class again... or like I'm playing an old text adventure game and can't remember the right command to examine a rock (it's LOOK you idiot, LOOK!).


Uh, or you could just specify whether you consider "high-powered" to mean "able to whip the ass of 20 men barehanded," (any character capable of this in WoD would be very stompy indeed) or "able to single-handedly fight armies," (pretty much nobody in WoD is capable of that, or most games for that matter-- and it is certainly something you can do in Exalted!) or "able to smash mountains in half with a single punch" (which is pretty freaking out there even for Exalted... but not, notably, for Aberrant, or Nobilis).

[#][F] John Mørke - 1/29/2013
MrInsecure wrote:
For example: someone asks if the game will be high-powered. Instead of saying "I can't answer that question because the term 'high-powered' is vague," like you're a computer getting messed up by a missing bracket in the code somewhere, you can say: "well, I'm not sure if I get what you mean by 'high-powered,' but if you're asking about what sorts of things you'll be able to accomplish at Essence X, you can generally expect..."


What I said amounts to "I don't know what you mean by high level, so give specific examples." If that doesn't satisfy you, I apologize. But it doesn't warrant the condescending insulting bullshit you just posted.