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[#][F] Holden - 10/13/2013
MissMaddy wrote:
While Nobiliis is in fact really cool, I'm hesitant to ascribe such ideological purity and such blanket motivations ot the Raksha - them 'loving the Tao' of humans is a bit weird of a fit.


Well yes, they're not Excrucian Deceivers. That's just part of the inspiration bucket. They don't drink blood or crisp up in the sun, either :p

[#][F] Holden - 10/13/2013
Isator Levi wrote:
Interesting though Nobilis undoubtedly is, I feel like the commonality between raksha and Excrucians will be that they love the world in spite of actions that superficially seem to display the contrary, rather than why they do.

I'm saying this only because there are occasionally instances where speculation can disappear inside of its own tangents.

And also because I kind of want more dicsussion about the Fair Folk.

Two thoughts:
* The raksha apparently hold a status as former dominant force of the Wyld. There appear to be specific contexts that drive a relationship with the hannya, but I wonder if there's any place for rancour or other relationship with other forces of the Wyld that they held hegemony over without directly enslaving.
* The idea that raksha, in their own people, are literally narratives seems to be being deemphasized, but there still seems to be merit in a perspective based on how you can model the mindset and personality of a raksha by comparisons to certain types of fictional character. I wonder if this will be a point suggested by how they're written, and if it shouldn't be to avoid adding problematic tangents to discussion and play.


In play, I'd like raksha to feel strange and alien without immediately disappearing up their own ass. Like: You have a raksha in the party, and most of the time it's like having Namor in the party-- he's a supercilious prick and irritatingly aware that he's immortal and beautiful and awesome, and when a fight starts up he jumps in and yells IMPERIOUS REX and punches stuff in the face and it's all good. Most of the time. Then occasionally he'll say or do something and it's like "oh, right: this is an alien monster without a soul."

[#][F] Holden - 10/13/2013
Tiresias wrote:
3- The Solution Sucks

Devil-Tiger charms are also stuck in the Ex2 paradigm. Pushing the rush to Essence 6? Experience taxes? Charms that do things that shouldn't be left to charms? All perfectly normal within the context of Ex2, especially for Infernals. The major problem here is that you need to homebrew an entirely new charmset, which is almost impossible for the average player. Even so, you had to create custom charms if you wanted War charms or something, so even that isn't a unique problem.

However, if you build a system that stays within the Essence 1-5 scale, isn't balanced around experience taxes and doesn't rely on charms to do everything, the entire concept of Devil-Tigers just falls apart. It's untenable outside the context of Ex2.


And not really necessary given the Exigents book, either. Want your own custom Exalt? Just make one-- no hoops to jump through. I mean, that book is about Exigents, sure, but the guidelines given to homebrew your own Exigent are perfectly and equally applicable to making up some kind of new non-Exigent Exalt from Hell.

[#][F] Holden - 10/13/2013
Ochre wrote:
Uh.... Okay, I still gotta ask -- what IS the "Tao" of "us" that they love?


Likely inexpressible using words and concepts and ideas and a framework of reality, because it's not any of the parts of ourselves we would recognize from within the framework of reality. Deceivers think reality is fake, a lie, a hideous thing that people accept-- they're not sure why! They keep trying to help us tear it down and break free. We don't appreciate their efforts to destroy everything we know and understand and value, but they keep trying anyway-- we're worth fighting for.

(All the Excrucians are fucked up in various ways.)

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/13/2013
Ochre wrote:
Is this whatever-it-is essence of the thing, something the people on earth would care about themselves? Or is it something too abstract for people to really appreciate?

The latter. Most people, when told that someone loved them, but not their hands, or their nose, or their body, or their dreams, or their experience of cognitive existence, or their pet dog, would not really take that as a compliment.

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/13/2013
AnubisXy wrote:
I thought Infernal charms were genius myself, making some of the coolest and most original statements I've seen in an RPG to date.

AnubisXy

The Infernal Charms were, without a doubt, genius, both in terms of the new level of mechanical sophistication they brought 2e Charm design to and the raw aesthetic coolness of them. Neph/Michael wrote the best damn Charmset in the entire edition, and probably taught me the lion's share of what I know about Charm design.

When John and Holden first told me, back when we were still planning Shards, about 3e Infernals, my initial reaction was probably the same one a lot of y'all had. I love Infernals, and my dumb monkey brain is as prone to change aversion as any other dude's. But as they went on, and explained the problems they were trying to solve (which I think are by now common forum knowledge) and the plans they had for the new Infernal Charmset (which aren't ^_^), they convinced me, as a designer. I wouldn't be writing for 3e if I didn't believe it would be something that I could love, and knowing what we have planned for seven years out, I am definitely loving it.

I'm just one dude, and the fact that I happen to be writing for the line doesn't do anything to convert my opinions into facts. But I, for one, welcome our new Infernal overlords.

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/12/2013
BrilliantRain wrote:

The new edition of Nobilis has a supplement on the Deceivers, one of the four types of Excrucians, which digs deep into their mindset, but, basically, when they look at us they see a junkie who would rather stay hopped up on LSD than face real life.

Or, like, you know those episodes of, like, every show ever, where one of the characters has to chose between two different realities, each claiming the other is fake? And the ending is left ambiguous as to which reality is real, because they always show this clip of the family members looking at the now catatonic person who's living in a dreamworld?


I'll take the opportunity to quote Doctor Moran here, just because she's brilliant.

A Diary of Deceivers wrote:

The Parable of the Asylum

There is something true and beautiful, yet it hates itself so much that it pretends to be this world full of things and people. There is something marvelous, eternal, and good, yet it goes around playing at knees and noses, war and hatred, color, sensation, sky and ground.

It’s like finding out that the world ran out of toilet paper so your buddy Fred used the Mona Lisa.

It’s like finding Einstein or Noether in some asylum somewhere, outside a little town so poor and backwards that they can’t even afford separate schools for humans and prize pigs.They’re begging for paper but nobody gives them any so they have to write their equations on the walls instead. It’s total vandalism but everyone around them just sighs and shakes their head sadly and says, “Bless their hearts!”

And then it’s like going in and trying to drag them off to Princeton or something, but they won’t go, because they’ve got to have their shots and pills, you know, and anyway, what kind of school is Princeton, anyway? Never heard of a prize pig come out of Princeton, I can tell you that!

It’s like the world is this defacement of something good.

The Parable of the Spouse

But it’s not all about genius and great art. It’s not about aesthetics
.
Really what it is, is —

It’s like watching somebody you care about make an awful decision. It’s like seeing them get back together with the worst person in the world for them. It’s like knowing they’re getting back on drugs or whatever after finally being clean.

The world is like watching some strong, good, cool person —

Some person that you love and admire —

Standing there while a family member, or old flame, or spouse, or whatever just beats them up emotionally, treats them as trash, and they just take it because they don’t know how to do anything else. It’s like seeing them come up with reason after reason afterwards why this is actually OK.

“We have to live in a world,” its victims cry, “because . . . because our hearts beat, and that gives blood to the brain! Because we have to work to make money to buy food to eat to live so we can work! Because we wake up in the morning and we go to sleep at night. Because the ankle bone connects to the leg bone. It can’t connect to anything else! Because we pledged allegiance to that flag. Because Mom and Dad told us to! Because everybody knows that that’s how it works. Because ‘breaking free of the illusion’ is just self-indulgent claptrap. Because we want things. Because we don’t want to face things. Because we love, we hate, we need, we hunger, we cry, we laugh, we scream, we fight, and we fall down —”

The Parable of the Fire

It’s like watching somebody get trapped in an Internet argument while their house burns down. You want to tell them: Look. Steve.

If that’s their name. If their name is Eleanor, say, Look. Eleanor. instead.

Look. Steve. I know that someone is misconstruing a key point of your argument because they haven’t really considered the possibility that your perspective could be legitimate. I get that. You’re not feeling heard. You’re not feeling heard and you think that more eloquence, or highlighting, or unloading a sarcastic verbal battery will fix that.

And it won’t take very long to get your point down in text.

I get that too. It’s quick to type what you need to say and until you’ve done that, until you’ve actually written it into that text box and clicked on Post or Save or whatever, it’s vulnerable. Right now, the things you want to say only exist in ephemeral, vulnerable form in your head. All it will take is a little tumble down collapsing stairs and a bit of smoke inhalation and it could all be gone, as if you’d never thought it. As if this whole moment, this whole self that you are and have and are experiencing with me right now, never existed.

I get that.

If you don’t answer this post right now, it’ll be as if this particular version of you will die; dissolve; never have existed; and will have gone to its grave unheard.

They like the dub of My Neighbor Totoro better than the sub. I hear you.

But your house, man. Steve. Your house. It is on fire.

The Parable of the Traveling Circus Mangled into a Twisted Ball of Metal by Some Passing Giant Metal Mangling Insects and Dangled Precipitously over the Conveyor Belt Leading into a Meat-Grinder, While We in the Audience All Pass Our Time Taunting the Clowns and Throwing Popcorn at the Admittedly Inefficient Ringmaster and His Conceits . . .

That’s kind of the way that Deceivers see us. It’s all about this mangled train- wreck atrocity of a circus show dangling precariously over a meat-grinder conveyor belt, this world of ours, and we’re all so busy taunting the clowns and jostling one another that you’d think it was the correct emergency response.

The world would prompt from them nothing but one long, sustained head-desking if it weren’t for the fact that they love us —

Well, not us us. Not the us. The underlying us. The crystal thing. The shapeless truth.

That us.

They love us, they love the Tao of us, the being of us, the underlying fundamental True Thing of us. So watching us get ourselves all tangled up in world like this — that really hurts!

[#][F] John Mørke - 10/12/2013
The Hanged Man wrote:
He stated that Exalts who could rival Solars participated in the war. He stated that you can make Exigents that rival Solars. He did not state that the Exalts who rivaled Solars in the war were Exigents. Indeed, my reading sees the term "as well" as suggesting the precise opposite - that the Solar-rivaling things in the Niobraran War (which I would bet were Enemy Chosen, rather than allies of the Deliberative) would be good models for Exigents, without being Exigents.


These statements are 100% accurate, and you read my meaning correctly. It's not necessarily Exigents that appeared during the Niobraran War.

However, Exigents were well established by then, and have their origins in the divine revolution against the enemies of the gods.

AnubisXy wrote:

On the other hand, if Your-Tears-Sustain-Me, a powerful salt god with a long history of antagonism and animosity towards the Order, created an Exigent in secret without telling anyone, the Immaculate Monks would view both the spirit and the Exigent as enemies and proceed to hunt them down, even if the salt god created the Exigent in order to protect a local community from an attack by Raksha. They might not kill the Exigent, but the best he could hope for is to be forcibly made to join the Order and have people keeping an eye on him for the rest of his life.


Clever.

[#][F] John Mørke - 10/12/2013
It never mattered how the Deathlords were created.

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/12/2013
silverwinglie wrote:

Hmm...so is 3E going back to something like 1e's air of "a lot of things are a mystery" or "left up to the DM to surmise if you absolutely MUST know"?

Because that's kinda cool.

3E is not going to be an edition where everything is sorted neatly into a labeled box.

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/12/2013
The MG wrote:
Eldagusto wrote:
The Demented One wrote:
There's one way, but you're going to need at least one other person to help you with it. :P
How? I wanna see! Could you demonstrate a simulation of this for us in youtube?
It's Liminal Exaltation.

EDIT: I love how my immediate assumption was 'blasphemous ritual that denies death' rather than 'sex'.

Actually laughed out loud. Thanks, MG.

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/12/2013
Pinning precise canonical numbers to things for no real substantial reason generally hasn't done much good for the game throughout its history.

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/12/2013
Arrakiz wrote:

Does that mean we can expect a Deathlord that is not a ghost of a solar Exalt, that their creation didn't involve sticking the souls of dead Primordials inside them, or that they're incomparably weaker then the Incarnea?

It means that they are not confirmed theories. ^_^

[#][F] The Demented One - 10/12/2013
The Free Man wrote:
This is a questions for the writers about the coming addition. It's been said that there will be no Craft: Genesis in 3rd Edition; will there be a way for Exalts (or other creatures) to create life, or is that off limits now?

There's one way, but you're going to need at least one other person to help you with it. :P

[#][F] Eric Minton - 10/12/2013
Limited Reagent wrote:
I'd still say Essence imbalances and subsequent elementals mucking about would eventually cause more harm than good in the long run. (Generally. Depending on the god.) It's not rains of fire and brimstone (usually; a volcano god fucking off could cause that), but it wouldn't be pleasant. I do like how you could have it better in the short term with a god screwing off, though. Short term gain vs long term stability is often interesting to explore.
Friggin' elementals. Someone needs to keep 'em in their place.

(hence terrestrial spirit courts)