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[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Tiresias wrote:
SachKreiosLucy4 wrote:

While not opposed, isn't this a tiny bit artificial feeling (no pun intended)?

If we have gear-emblems, one would imagine that one day an engineer would use gears in a machine.

If we have explosive materials, one would imagine that one day an engineer would try using them in a grenade or cannon.

If we have savants actually building Alchemicals, one would imagine lesser mortals emulating the same kind of devices via more basic gadgetry.


Autochthonia is weird. Between shortages and the constraints of tunnel warfare, building a cannon is probably a massive waste.


Also unworkable because Exalted doesn't have gunpowder.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
The playtests indicate that it's not change you need to fear in EX3, anyway.

It's tyrant lizards. Those fuckers bite HARD.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Zironic wrote:
Mostlyjoe wrote:
Holden wrote:
Probably not. Most likely expectation is to see "magitech" disappear from the game's vocabulary and no particular acknowledgment of mechanical-y artifacts as being categorically separate from other artifacts--pretty much like 1e, in other words.


How does that impact Alchemicals when they show up?


I imagine they'll be using artifacts that look more mechanical, but are still just normal artifacts. I think it's worth noting that the main weapons of the Alchemicals are crossbows and chakrams, not essence cannons and the like.


The armies of Autochthonia have always fought with short swords, crossbows, and reinforced buff jackets as their main kit. They just have gear-emblem pauldrons and shit. Industrial machinery is a visual motif for Autochthonia; it's not actually a mechanized entity when the rubber hits the road. Never has been.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Mostlyjoe wrote:
Holden wrote:
Probably not. Most likely expectation is to see "magitech" disappear from the game's vocabulary and no particular acknowledgment of mechanical-y artifacts as being categorically separate from other artifacts--pretty much like 1e, in other words.


How does that impact Alchemicals when they show up?


Not at all. Why should it?

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Segev wrote:
Holden wrote:
I'd say WotLA did more damage in a broad sense, seeing as it was the very first supplement. It launched an edition where 98% of your options when you bought the Artifact background were sci-fi gizmos, failed to stress rarity beyond a sentence in the introduction, presented them like a shopping list, then gave them no drawbacks because of the nonexistent repair/maintenance rules. That skewed the entire shape of the edition going forward.

Would it be fair to hope for a WotLA-like book for 3e, sometime after enough others have been written to more firmly settle the default, and with better rules for representing the...difficulties...and unique capabilities of such things?


Probably not. Most likely expectation is to see "magitech" disappear from the game's vocabulary and no particular acknowledgment of mechanical-y artifacts as being categorically separate from other artifacts--pretty much like 1e, in other words.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
notthepenguins wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
notthepenguins wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
The all-inclusive overly Sci-Fi magitech presentation of 2e is what wrecked Exalted, taking it from a fresh, invigorating phenomenon, to a creatively bankrupt game that takes terminology and ideas directly from Final Fantasy 6.

Oh come on, that's not true. The over-emphasis on it was a problem, and arguably its inclusion at all was, but it's absurd to argue that magitech's treatment in 2E alone ruined the game and rendered it creatively bankrupt.


Oh, there were definitely a lot of other problems. I didn't mean to exclude them by not listing them. This is just the one that matters in this conversation. That and you can never overstate how much damage the Sci-Fi rebranding caused.

I would thank this post for you clarifying what you meant, but I dig the sci-fi. But thanks for clarifying!


I dig sci-fi as well. But Exalted is not a sci-fi game. Perhaps Onyx Path's upcoming AEON game will be of interest to you!

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Zironic wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

Oh, there were definitely a lot of other problems. I didn't mean to exclude them by not listing them. This is just the one that matters in this conversation. That and you can never overstate how much damage the Sci-Fi rebranding caused.


Could you expand on that? I can see how it would be limiting when all the powerful magic has to be expressed as technological, but it's not like technology settings are inherently bad so I'd like to hear more about the specific issues you consider it to have been causing.

videopete wrote:

WRONG.

O's Codex focused on Normal Artifacts building, Thaumaturgy and Manse Construction. There was no magitech in it.

Wonders of the Lost Age was the magitech book.


I suspect DotfA was the damning book if any. Even with WotlA the magitech wasn't that important and there was only a couple of really useful artifacts (beyond the power armors). DotfA was the book that established the First Age to be basically Exalted Modern.


I'd say WotLA did more damage in a broad sense, seeing as it was the very first supplement. It launched an edition where 98% of your options when you bought the Artifact background were sci-fi gizmos, failed to stress rarity beyond a sentence in the introduction, presented them like a shopping list, then gave them no drawbacks because of the nonexistent repair/maintenance rules. That skewed the entire shape of the edition going forward.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Eternal_King wrote:
Holden wrote:
Aquillion wrote:
I don't understand why losing canon magitech is causing such problems for people.


I do. It shifted the game's default genre-tone from "pulp fantasy" (1e) to "steampunk fantasy" (the dominant tone of 2e).

It was obvious to us we could have one or the other, but not both. We picked the original vision to use as our place to start from.


Well, too fucking bad for me and for lots of other players who actually enjoyed it.

Do not like "pulp fantasy". Find it too bland.


A game whose explicit aim is to be a pulp fantasy revival might not be the best fit for you, then.

[#][F] John Mørke - 2/25/2013
notthepenguins wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
The all-inclusive overly Sci-Fi magitech presentation of 2e is what wrecked Exalted, taking it from a fresh, invigorating phenomenon, to a creatively bankrupt game that takes terminology and ideas directly from Final Fantasy 6.

Oh come on, that's not true. The over-emphasis on it was a problem, and arguably its inclusion at all was, but it's absurd to argue that magitech's treatment in 2E alone ruined the game and rendered it creatively bankrupt.


Oh, there were definitely a lot of other problems. I didn't mean to exclude them by not listing them. This is just the one that matters in this conversation. That and you can never overstate how much damage the Sci-Fi rebranding caused.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
(backs out of the thread without making any sudden motions)

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Also, if you like the thought of Exalted-as-like-the-20th-century-but-powered-by-magic, go pick up Shards of the Exalted Dream. Or spin up your own shard. We moved that stuff out into places where you could positively roll around in it so we could focus on crafting a coherent setting.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Aquillion wrote:
I don't understand why losing canon magitech is causing such problems for people.


I do. It shifted the game's default genre-tone from "pulp fantasy" (1e) to "steampunk fantasy" (the dominant tone of 2e).

It was obvious to us we could have one or the other, but not both. We picked the original vision to use as our place to start from.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Ouroboros13 wrote:
OK. The Realm as a whole is an empire, with all the economic and military exploitation that implies. This is not a defense of the Realm.

But let us consider the Immaculate Order. The Dragonblooded Immaculates have traded wealth, luxury and decadence for a life of austerity and meditation. They use their awesome martial arts to keep gods in line; which, as far as I can tell, is actually pretty good news for the man-in-the-street.

Outside the Immaculate Order's reach, the local rain god can demand what he likes for rain; prayers by the bucket, virgins by the armful, maybe even human sacrifice if he's powerful and sadistic enough. And the local farmers are pretty much over the barrel, without rain, the crops fail and they starve so they give the rain-god what he wants.

Within the Immaculate Order's sphere of influence, the rain-god gets his allotted quota of prayers and that's it. And if he tries to with-hold rain to get a few virgins thrown in, the Immaculates will come and kick his ass for you. Admittedly, the Immaculate Order tends to come part-and-parcel of the Realm, which includes taxes galore and maybe some House Cynis Dynasts taking a few virgins themselves. But it's genuinely not the Immaculates taking the taxes and/or the virgins and the Order will likely disapprove (admittedly in a quiet and not-in-front-of-the-mortals way) of Cynis' excesses.

So, bearing all this in mind, why should I think of the Immaculate Order as bad guys?


Cynical answer: They're propping up and enabling the bad guys. As an apparatus of the Realm, the Immaculate Order isn't there for the spiritual betterment of its subjects, or to provide them with peaceful respite from the gods; it's there to keep the gods from horning in on the Dragon-Blooded's racket and to keep people docile and accepting of the manifest right of the Dragon-Blooded to come in and take whatever they want while barking orders.

Most Immaculate Monks don't think of things that way, of course; but I promise you many of the Order's enemies do.

[#][F] Holden - 2/25/2013
Ouroboros13 wrote:
OK. The Realm as a whole is an empire, with all the economic and military exploitation that implies. This is not a defense of the Realm.

But let us consider the Immaculate Order. The Dragonblooded Immaculates have traded wealth, luxury and decadence for a life of austerity and meditation. They use their awesome martial arts to keep gods in line; which, as far as I can tell, is actually pretty good news for the man-in-the-street.

Outside the Immaculate Order's reach, the local rain god can demand what he likes for rain; prayers by the bucket, virgins by the armful, maybe even human sacrifice if he's powerful and sadistic enough. And the local farmers are pretty much over the barrel, without rain, the crops fail and they starve so they give the rain-god what he wants.

Within the Immaculate Order's sphere of influence, the rain-god gets his allotted quota of prayers and that's it. And if he tries to with-hold rain to get a few virgins thrown in, the Immaculates will come and kick his ass for you. Admittedly, the Immaculate Order tends to come part-and-parcel of the Realm, which includes taxes galore and maybe some House Cynis Dynasts taking a few virgins themselves. But it's genuinely not the Immaculates taking the taxes and/or the virgins and the Order will likely disapprove (admittedly in a quiet and not-in-front-of-the-mortals way) of Cynis' excesses.

So, bearing all this in mind, why should I think of the Immaculate Order as bad guys?


Cynical answer: They're propping up and enabling the bad guys. As an apparatus of the Realm, the Immaculate Order isn't there for the spiritual betterment of its subjects, or to provide them with peaceful respite from the gods; it's there to keep the gods from horning in on the Dragon-Blooded's racket and to keep people docile and accepting of the manifest right of the Dragon-Blooded to come in and take whatever they want while barking orders.

Most Immaculate Monks think of things that way, of course; but I promise you many of the Order's enemies do.

[#][F] John Mørke - 2/25/2013
Zironic wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I am particularly vulnerable to people telling me they're afraid their characters are going away.

I am deaf to arguments that "my Exalted should be everyone's Exalted."

It's really hard to take anything out of Exalted. It's really easy to put things into Exalted.

The all-inclusive overly Sci-Fi magitech presentation of 2e is what wrecked Exalted, taking it from a fresh, invigorating phenomenon, to a creatively bankrupt game that takes terminology and ideas directly from Final Fantasy 6.


I always thought the magitech came from the FF7 inspiration, but then I don't know if I ever played FF6. What I find interesting though is that even though 1e explicitly notes FF7 as an inspiration, it doesn't seem to have any magitech.


Magitech is in FF6. I don't mean that metaphorically. I mean they have magical technology that is literally called magitech.

The main inspiration of FF7 on Exalted 1e was the direct correlation between Materia and the Charm set. This becomes especially clear when you look at Alchemical Charms. (To a lesser degree, there's also hearthstones.)