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[#][F] Holden - 3/4/2013
JimB wrote:
John Mørke wrote:
I am not going to offer any hints about Infernals in third edition, save to reiterate assurances that I have not forgotten them.

Buffalo Bill never forgot that woman in the pit in his basement, either.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I accuse you of kidnapping and planning to murder Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals so you can skin its corpse and wear its hide as a lady-suit.


Adorjan would have wanted it that way.

[#][F] Holden - 3/4/2013
Mostlyjoe wrote:
Just like the Alchemicals were the darlings of 1E, the Infernals are 2E's darlings. They are in the roster but are for later down the new line.


Man, the Alchies flopped in 1e. If 1e had a darling, it was the Abyssals.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Chaka wrote:
Isator Levi wrote:
Chaka wrote:
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.


I'd think you'd want to get closer to it than ever.


That fucking moon.

Seriously though. Of all the hills people can die on (I love that's a phrase now), 'whether or not Martial Arts is an Ability' is pretty much one of the most nonsensical. No-one has any idea how any part of the system works. What's in a name? Jesus.


Here's the way I see it. The setting creates the system, not vice versa. Notice how we have Archery instead of Firearms, Ride instead of Drive, and we have Sail, period? Martial arts—as in, systemized fighting styles as well as mystical routes to enlightenment—are a pillar of the setting, which is why we have the Martial Arts Ability.

It's not really helpful to the conversation when somebody looks at a single decision and goes "BAD IDEA" without saying why they think it's a bad idea. There aren't enough statements in place to even make that call, so you have to assume they're working off the idea that we're going to redo Martial Arts exactly like 2e, which is a humorous position.



[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
I am not going to offer any hints about Infernals in EX3, save to reiterate assurances that I have not forgotten them.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
BrilliantRain wrote:
IIrc, in the Ask the Magnus thread, he stated that he Exalted by being the first person to ever successfully use the Eye of Autochthon.

I would tend to assume that this sort of thing will likely be the rule rather than the exception in 3e.


Well, perhaps only the first we know about.

But yes, he spoke of "breaking a code" on the eye and removing its "ban" on prayers. Which means it was being used to block prayers from reaching the gods.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
GSD wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

None of this really suggests why he was a Dawn rather than a Zenith, but the strong implication is that Panther was going to find out as his story went on.

I think you got that backwards, boss.

(Unless that is a new spoiler! Gasp, in 3e, the old sigs are all in different castes! Dace is an eclipse! /silly)


Tai-po, the man who killed my sifu.



[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Ghosthead wrote:
MorkaisChosen wrote:
OK, I'm a 2e kid, more familiar with the Panther of the chapter comics and WHAT THE CHRIST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, and you just made me go "holy shit that guy's actually pretty cool."

Wanting more is a wonderful driver of heroic stories.
He is pretty cool. He's not like a "hero who achieves supernatural levels of awesomeness through nothing more than hard work and dedication" at all.

He's a hero who was chosen by the Unconquered Sun because he was pretty cool and his chutzpah - because of his character, not because he worked hard for it.

You can regard that as earned, sure, I just do not see it as pure "hard work and dedication" in the sense described by the OP and BrilliantRain's quoted text. Which is my point. He may have worked hard, may have been naturally talented - CB : Zenith isn't really clear. He's just not a character who strove to improve himself and to be the best in world (certainly not in any kind of sustained long term way) and got rewarded for it or anything, or who was Exalted because he strove beyond mortal limits.

If you want to see that as "hard work and dedication", then I guess you can, it just seems more like character to me - particularly in this context. It seems a bit disingeous and specious rhetoric to call what Panther and Havesh have "hard work and dedication". I'm not super interested in word gaming this out though, so whatever helps as a model.


You are working off a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Solars are Chosen from mortals who are amazing and exceptional. Literature does not rely on perfect 100% absolute clarity and can be even more rewarding when it creates a strong supposition and leaves the reader to supply qualitative details. All we needed to know about Panther was the brutal life he led, and just the fact that he was alive, in the prime of his life, and healthy tells us he was a fighting champion. None of this really suggests why he wasn't a Dawn rather than a Zenith, but the strong implication is that Panther was going to find out as his story went on. Unfortunately, that's not how it went down in Panther's 2e art/comics.

So Panther was exceptional, but it's not really clear why he might be a leader. But the remit of the Unconquered Sun to make a righteous world lit a fire deep in his dark and pitiless soul. Mind you, that was not "go out and make a world I would consider righteous." The sparks of the Zenith were there if you looked for them. In EX3 they will have fanned into an inferno.

It doesn't require all the hyperbole you're supplying, and it definitely doesn't come from me.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/4/2013
Ghosthead wrote:
MorkaisChosen wrote:
OK, I'm a 2e kid, more familiar with the Panther of the chapter comics and WHAT THE CHRIST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, and you just made me go "holy shit that guy's actually pretty cool."

Wanting more is a wonderful driver of heroic stories.
He is pretty cool. He's not like a "hero who achieves supernatural levels of awesomeness through nothing more than hard work and dedication" at all.

He's a hero who was chosen by the Unconquered Sun because he was pretty cool and his chutzpah - because of his character, not because he worked hard for it.

You can regard that as earned, sure, I just do not see it as pure "hard work and dedication" in the sense described by the OP and BrilliantRain's quoted text. Which is my point. He may have worked hard, may have been naturally talented - CB : Zenith isn't really clear. He's just not a character who strove to improve himself and to be the best in world (certainly not in any kind of sustained long term way) and got rewarded for it or anything, or who was Exalted because he strove beyond mortal limits.

If you want to see that as "hard work and dedication", then I guess you can, it just seems more like character to me - particularly in this context. It seems a bit disingeous and specious rhetoric to call what Panther and Havesh have "hard work and dedication". I'm not super interested in word gaming this out though, so whatever helps as a model.


You are working off a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Solars are Chosen from mortals who are amazing and exceptional. Literature does not rely on perfect 100% absolute clarity and can be even more rewarding when it creates a strong supposition and leaves the reader to supply qualitative details. All we needed to know about Panther was the brutal life he led, and just the fact that he was alive, in the prime of his life, and healthy tells us he was a fighting champion. None of this really suggests why he was a Dawn rather than a Zenith, but the strong implication is that Panther was going to find out as his story went on. Unfortunately, that's not how it went down in Panther's 2e art/comics.

So Panther was exceptional, but it's not really clear why he might be a leader, except the onus the Unconquered Sun put on him to go out and make a righteous world seemed to click with him, to light up some fire deep in his dark and pitiless soul. Mind you, that was not "go out and make a world I would consider righteous." The sparks of the Zenith were there if you looked for them. In EX3 they will have fanned into an inferno.

It doesn't require all the hyperbole you're supplying, and it definitely doesn't come from me.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/3/2013
Zironic wrote:
John Mørke wrote:

I don't know how to parse what you're saying against the existence of singularly phenomenal presidents like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Career efficacy aside, nobody replicates their achievements or their iconicism.


This ultimately comes down to if you believe in Great Man Theory or not.


I'm in the middle.

I know that you can't line up everything Brem Marst did, and copy it to make your own Guild. Some actions can't be reproduced without the right circumstances, and without being every bit as lucky, smart, witty, and lucky as Brem Marst in the same ways as Brem Marst at the same moments.

He founded the Guild and protected it in its formative years from the Scarlet Empress and the Realm, and set an example for the organization to follow. It's not impossible that someone else could have the same success but it is not correct that such people could come by his success simply by doing what Brem did.



[#][F] Eric Minton - 3/3/2013
Blaque wrote:
I just realized I got names mixed-up.
To clarify for other posters, the character in question is Bal Keraz, the Realm's Minister of the Treasury.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/3/2013
Weimann wrote:
The question was if Brem Marst represents the peak of mortal excellence, in the light of his foundation of the Guild. Personally, I like to think not.

By this I mean that while Marst is certainly instrumental to its creation and surely of great intelligence, ruthlessness and entrepreneurial spirit, it's false to consider the Guild to be a representation of his inherent power. He had a vision, but in the end the Guild is made up of other people, probably not much different from him. He was the first one to do it, though, and once something is done, it suddenly becomes much easier to do it again. The fact that the Guild remained and developed after his death is proof that he himself was not actually crucial to the existence of the Guild.

I don't mean to belittle Brem Marst. My point is that the fact that he was the one that did it doesn't have to mean he was the only one that could have done it. It doesn't represent the peak of mortal excellence in the sense that such a thing is likely to never happen again. It also means that other mortals can be considered to have just as much "excellence" as Marst, even if they channel it into properly maintaining an organisation rather than creating it.

Of course, in a game session, you might want to focus on the revolutionaries rather than the institutionalists. But I personally don't think a smart person has to be that incredibly much smarter than the rest to be the like of Brem Marst, is all.


I don't know how to parse what you're saying against the existence of singularly phenomenal presidents like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Career efficacy aside, nobody replicates their achievements or their iconicism.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/3/2013
Not going to get into specifics on how it all shakes out. The Martial Arts Ability has had a troubled history and we're aware of it. Let's talk about the positive aspects: things you loved about styles, or things you wish you could do with martial arts.

[#][F] John Mørke - 3/3/2013
Brem Marst was definitely a mortal. Many considered him to be a shyster and a con artist.



[#][F] John Mørke - 3/3/2013
Stephanie Vega wrote:

Questions:
- Will Sijan still be around?
- Will I be able to play Dynasty Warriors in the new system (ie nigh superhuman generals leading hordes of extras into battle)? I’m already certain I can do bog standard Romance of the Three Kingdoms (both the novel and the game) with it.
- Speaking of Three Kingdoms, will the Mass Combat system allow for Zhuge Liang/Sun Zi style battles with stratagems, ambushes and generals who don’t lead from the front yet are still indisputably badass?
- Are Emotion keyword charms like Heart Compelling Method and Wild Revelry Approach still a thing?
- Based on the Charm previews thus far, I gather that intimacies are a critical part of the new social rules. Will Virtues also be integrated, either as targets for social attacks or in another fashion?


Welcome aboard! (Does that count as a pun?)

-Yes, Sijan will still be there. If you like Sijan, you are going to love the Liminals.
-Yes to Dynasty Warriors and yes to Zhuge Liang.
-This is still being worked out, no answer yet.
-You are correct about Intimacies. The Virtue system is still being balanced, but we expect it to have a place in the social system.




[#][F] Eric Minton - 3/3/2013
Isator Levi wrote:
Stephanie Vega wrote:
- Will Sijan still be around?
Now this here, I think this could be worth being my hill to die on.
I don't think you have anything to worry about on that score.