One Weapon, Two Blows and other Charms like it

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/14/2017
Originally posted by Bronze Tiger View Post
In general I understand that Charms must enhance or create rolls of the abilities they come from, unless otherwise stated. Where this gets a little fuzzy to me is the aforementioned Charm and I want to get some feedback on it and others like it.

One Weapon, Two Blows - Charm states that after making a withering attack that lowered an opponent initiative from a value great to a value less than the Solar's own that this Charm can then be used to make another attack. I know the new attack has to be made with Melee, but does the first one? I can see mechanical arguments both ways, visually I think it works to have it allow for any ability to trigger it, and I haven't found anything to help me clarify this in the rules.

Thoughts?

​Also thanks ahead of time for anyone that helps
Here are the restrictions that I am aware of from the Ex3 corebook (p. 252):
  • "Simple Charms generally create actions using their governing Ability, unless otherwise indicated."
  • "Supplemental Charms can generally only benefit rolls using the Ability they’re listed under, unless otherwise stated."
One Weapon, Two Blows is a Reflexive Charm that creates a new attack action, one that's distinct from the attack that triggers it. This does not fall under either of the above restrictions, and as such, it can follow an attack that used any Ability.

If I missed anything, I'm sure someone will let me know.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/14/2017
Originally posted by BjornTheFellhanded View Post
The name of the charm is one weapon two blows. As an ST, I would (house)rule that the attack has to be made with the same weapon. though I admit that the charm text doesn't seem to specify that.
You certainly have that prerogative as the Storyteller, but it's important to remember that Charm names are largely for flavor. By the same logic, you can refuse to allow the use of Summon the Loyal Steel with an orichalcum daiklave because it contains no steel, or rule that Ghost-Eating Technique actually requires you to chew up the spirit and swallow it.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/15/2017
If a Storyteller wants to implement house rules and their players are happy with that, the Onyx Path ninjas won't sneak into your house and burn your corebook. But insisting that the rules on Charm-Ability interaction don't say what they say, or that there aren't actually any such rules and thus combing through the Charm list for patterns is the only way to reverse-engineer such rules, just seems weird to me.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/15/2017
Originally posted by Andrew D View Post
I'm not really convinced that I'm "house ruling" here, though.
Extrapolation from examples is not a rule.

If you can cite a rule saying that the Melee attack generated by One Weapon, Two Blows can only be triggered by another Melee attack, I would be glad to see it! But I haven't seen one.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/15/2017
Originally posted by Leetsepeak View Post
If you think about it, it makes sense in a sort of cool way. You can get your one-two punch of your flame piece and your cutlass in the blink of an eye using this Charm. You can also punch somebody real hard with your off-hand and follow up with an attempt to impale somebody in your blade, that kind of thing.

If you were say a mortal doing this, it might not mechanically make much sense.
In real-life armed melee combat, it is A Thing for combatants to find themselves too close together to use their weapons effectively. I'm not as hip to the mechanics of actual combat as I am to, say, fencing. But in cinematic combat between mortals, it should make perfect sense to deliver an unarmed blow in close quarters, then follow it up with a step back into optimal melee range and swinging away with your weapon.

(this is not really about One Weapon, Two Blows anymore tho)

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/15/2017
Originally posted by Andrew D View Post
So Heavenly Guardian Defense is also a brawl/martial arts charm?
You can't apply your Parry from a brawling weapon to Heavenly Guardian Defense, just like you can't create a Brawl-based attack with One Weapon, Two Blows. But you can parry a Brawl-based attack with Heavenly Guardian Defense, just like you can trigger your Melee attack from One Weapon, Two Blows off of a prior Brawl attack.

If that doesn't answer your question, please clarify and I'll do my best to answer based on the information available to me.

[#][F] Eric Minton - 2/16/2017
Originally posted by Elkovash View Post

FYI. Since the first function of HgD doesn't interact with a DV ( it strikes away damage successes long after Defence has been a factor) that specific function doesn't interact with Reflexive charm rules. The question would remain if you could use that function without a Melee weapon at hand.

The other two functions directly involve Defence (allowing it to apply in specific circumstances) and thus interact with the stated reflexive rule and thus can only be used with Melee.

That was my understanding.
Ugh, you're right. While there's flavor text that suggests parrying, I see nothing in the first function of HGD that mandates the use of the Exalt's Parry. Unless I'm misreading, this means that by the book, you could use your Evasion, get hit, and then activate HGD.

For my own table, I plan to house rule this as enhancing your Parry Defense and thus being Melee-only. But unless someone more knowledgeable corrects me, I have to acknowledge this as a house rule.