Are Holden and Hatewheel still involved?

[#][F] Lucy Darling - 3/28/2017
Originally posted by Weimann View Post
I also hope they're still involved, as well as the other writers that have shown up (I'm really curious to see Lucy Darling's contribution, for example).
Sorry, I have pulled out of the project. Between one thing and another it wasn't personally sustainable as part of my freelance work.

Minton and Vance are top writers and are gonna do great work though!

[#][F] Lucy Darling - 4/2/2017
Neither John nor Holden will be writing for Exalted in the foreseeable future.

[#][F] Lucy Darling - 4/4/2017
Originally posted by Guancyto View Post
Their 'grievances' are against something that's the industry standard, and has been for ages.

Seriously, they're pissed about what has happened to every writer with a publisher, ever.

It sounds fair and even-handed to say 'both sides have a point' but sometimes they really, really don't.
Not in my experience. Every other writing job I have worked on has gotten me contracts well before things were drafted, least of all published, for example. And when it was per word, but word count required changing, I was paid for the words I wrote not the number they estimated. And if I needed a new contract because situations changed I got it. If something changed mid-cycle I got notified. Even when the publishing house itself went through major restructuring I still got paid, still got contracts, still got communicated with.

Put it this way - a friend of mine edited a book that missed external deadlines so got canned. She still got paid. Her contract got reissued to reflect the changing circumstances and she got paid for the work she did.

I had a short story in a collection and after I signed my contract the publishing house changed streams and dropped the book while still publishing in the area. I did not get paid but all rights reverted to me and I can shop the story around wherever I want and they will not use my work, nor the editors work, nor outlines for other collections, or research that we did. Because their contract does not allow it and that shit is unethical. You pay by the word then all you get is the words and you best have a contract to support that before you start clawing in drafts.

And if you require the writers to do promotion/comms management, that ought to be reflected in the pay too. That is more of a wriggle point I will admit, in terms of promotion. Comms management is unique to rpgs I will admit but one hopes there are ... procedures for when your people are being stalked and harassed online, the way most businesses with internet facing comms should. That is a sore point for me I admit.

Admin makes or breaks a company. I still write with the people I write with, that bit was not really an issue. Admin though? I rolled with a lot of shit that doesn't fly elsewhere and most of my work is in academics where we aren't even frigging paid for the writing bit unless we have tenure.

Being paid late is pretty standard, I'll admit that.

RPG standards are not in any way akin to regular publishing in my experience, and without serious trust in the people I work with, it is an experiment I am unlikely to delve into again. I am just too organised and admin-centric to deal with the shenanigans, and I don't have any loyalty to a gameline to bolster dealing with that level of stuff at work.

[#][F] Lucy Darling - 4/5/2017
Originally posted by Guancyto View Post
It stems from a really fundamental, basic failure to ask, for five years, "hey bossman, how exactly are we determining how much I get paid for this?"


Hrm. I will admit that I was thinking of novel and short story writers rather than RPG writers. You write a steamer trunk full of unworkable copy and your editor mercifully cuts it down to a novel, you get paid for a novel, you know?

Interesting that it isn't necessarily so elsewhere.

(I guess I'm a little biased from having read the corebook leaks, where there was so much unworkable copy, rightly thrown into the fire, and going "wait, you wanted to get paid by the word for that? Uh, let me check the going rate on birdcage liner...")

Huh. Since I am talking from the point of view of novels, short stories, nonfic and so on (which is just stuff I have actual experience writing and publishing, not hearsay and imagination), I am here to tell you that you're ...a bit all over the place. Because novels aren't by the word for one thing - you write a novel you get paid for a novel, that's true. And the way it works currently is that all the work got frontloaded, so you're being paid after you do the work (at least at the beginning, for most people). Short stories are fuzzier - it is by the word but for a range, still mostly paid post-writing. And you just don't get in if the story sucks/doesn't meet the spec of the anthology (if your editor is any good anyway). If it needs editing it gets edited and you still get paid by the word. If you get contracted for work like this, hand some shit in past deadline, you might get a cut fee, you might not, your work might go through the wringer to get edited up, it might not, but if it is gonna get used you're gonna get paid. And you get a contract when you get signed on unless you've got a handshake deal. Nonfic depends on market - mags and newspaper have brutal brutal word counts and limits and will hack your stuff to pieces if necessary, longer form depends on market.

What doesn't happen is that you edit it, the cut stuff gets used elsewhere, and you don't get paid because it got cut and you got paid for the first 3000 not anything after. That's how you get sections that don't make sense. That's how you get references to bits that got cut elsewhere. That's how you get 'shit we didn't cover X in your write up can you add that in please' resulting in either everything being cut past the bone to fit word count, or writers not getting paid.

And it isn't so much 'determining how much' as, say, issuing a contract for the things you've agreed on because handshake deals don't suffice anymore. A contract isn't just about how much you get paid, it's things like other fees, protections, deadlines. Contingency plans, and so on.

Also talking from the POV of someone who has seen drafts, so the 'they haven't produced anything' is, to not put a finer point on it, bullshit. John and Holden were producing work, and we were planning stuff. It didn't make it to you, the consumer, but it was being made and being written. And some of it being shit is likely on the writer, which given the fact it is a team effort and you're reading drafts, that is unsurprising in the least. And the Devs are paid by the word that they have to work on which was part of throwing shit into the fire when it was bad, and wrangling writer ego/anxiety about it too.

(I mean, I am in the enviable position of having seen a bunch of the 'lost material' but hey, that's a perq of being mates with them, not about my writing)

[#][F] Lucy Darling - 4/5/2017
Originally posted by Totentanz View Post

I see a whole lot of blame-shifting here that doesn't parse. If John and Holden are writing AND deving, the only roadblock to production of that content is OPP. Fortunately, OPP has been doing a bang-up job on producing finished content of late. Additionally, the MMM have shown several Exalted projects languishing in 2nd Draft for some time now. Regardless of how much they wrote, it's pretty clear they weren't producing the necessary content to move the line forward at a quality level that satisfied OPP, where other writers/developers have shown themselves able to do that. We have a multitude of examples of OPP moving PDF-only products from development through layout and onto drivethru in a matter of weeks/months. Clearly that didn't happen.

In terms of blaming the writers, which mysterious writers get to shoulder the delays, if not John, Holden, and yourself? I doubt it's Minton and Vance, given that OPP just entrusted them with the line, and they have produced more content (in the form of a preview) than Exalted has seen in nearly a year.. If writers get paid when they produce, and they weren't producing, John and Holden had plenty of opportunity to reassign tasks to those who did produce.

I don't say this to rag on John, Holden, or yourself. However, as long as these conversations have been going on, your posts do some combination of attacking people for being upset, justify any and all possible problems, and shift blame to others. None of that really holds water at this point. There are too many months of silence, too much condescension when the silence breaks, and too much non-delivery.
...why on earth do you think I exclude anyone from 'sometimes drafts suck'? Like, seriously, we all suck sometimes. That's why they are drafts*. Like the time I forgot a whole damn section of the outline in my write up and had to redraft my entire section to fit a really really crucial section into it. If someone read that draft it sure would have sucked because it didn't address Outcastes. That's not even addressing any specific quirks about my writing and grammar that come from having a vastly different educational and writing background to the rest of the team, and working in British English.

And *shrug* I am kinda confrontational right now, yeah. I make so secret about my bias, my friendship with the Devs, and my experience with the project. It doesn't mesh with yours, for a multitude of reasons, from the differences in bias to the very very different level of insight we have into the project as a whole.

*Holden has some of the cleanest drafts I have read in my time, but that comes at a cost too. I draft messy, and nonlinear, so even trying to match both of us on a timeline/schedule is difficult.

[#][F] Stephen Lea Sheppard - 4/6/2017
Neph did not do Coral in Compass: West. That was Genevieve Cogman.